Aye. folk on Tiree are rubbing salt in …

Comment posted on Karl Hughes: impacts of the proposed Tiree Array and divorce from the natural world by Karl Hughes

Aye. folk on Tiree are rubbing salt in by sending me photographs…no place like the West Coast when the weather is good or the weather is wild…enjoy it…

Karl Hughes also commented

  • QED. Cheers Karl
  • Yet it moves ????

    Lost me Stephen (doesn’t take much at this time of night)

  • I think you mean:

    “No puedo decir ….. no voy a decir … y sólo digo que, cuando ponemos en nuestra aplicación de planificación”

    or perhaps

    “¿Qué cambio climático”…………What climate change

  • Oohps! Great Northern Diver…Gavia immer,,,thought Loon was to risky…regards HB
  • Mr Viking
    42% of the UK’s overwintering GND are found in the inshore waters around Tiree…jncc.defra.gov.uk/pdf/JNCC416_web.pdf document also refers to the area being overly acceptable as an SPA…(apportioned SPA protection with this acceptance)
    Thats 9% of European population
    Rockflour: Drilling Technology in Nontechnical Language books.google.com/books?isbn=0878147624
    Tiree is famed for its white ‘shell ‘ sand beaches and windblown shell sand machair.
    Enjoy

Recent comments by Karl Hughes

  • Anas Sarwar: on the indyref bus with Labour on the move
    There is very little difference between any form of extremism and Facism…

    The Kurds will get their nation…they have heaps of Oil…more on the way.

    Iraq can’t manage them, Syria has basically said …yes go ahead…the Tiurks will allow a pipeline and charge them to export…whatsmore is they are opening their arm’s to displaced persons..whatever their cultural background.

    By all accounts Kurdistan is quite a different place, the people are organized and determined…well armed…the terrain is mountainous…vegetated ( green even) and has plenty of water…I sincerely wish them well.
    Anyhow…I need to switch off and watch something a bit happier before I sleep…Monty Python and the Life of Brian methinks….then dream about Family and Tiree… we are blessed to live where we live…truely blessed.

  • Anas Sarwar: on the indyref bus with Labour on the move
    You right Richard…I would be interested to know who you think the major two players are…for myself, Iran aka China…Saudia aka USA…two different branches of Islam…two different empires, one on the rise one on the wane..

    Seriously in the middle east Israel/ Palestine is a bit of a side show…a catalyst but not the main event…the Shia/ Sunni war here on the brew in Iraq will be the big one.

    The lines on the map are been re-written…from my perception of things here we are firstly seeing a religious war…but on the back of this is Oil and also not so far down the road water…it would be wrong to think that oil is the driver of this discontent, its simply a means to an end.

    And lets throw one other firework into the mix..social networking, instant communication, or if you prefer, instant misinformation…the new hearts and mind tool.

    “We are heading towards the end of the holy month of Ramadan and eidh follows…the weather starts to cool in September…the proverbial will start hitting the fan in the next 6 months” basically the words of a work friend who I called in Bagdad today…an Iraqi Shia, whom I respect and call a dear friend…he also told me he plans to move his family to Basrah…there is a food shortage in Baghdad…not because of the trouble up north…but because there are around 1 million new Shia who have moved to fight if ISIS try to attack Bagdhad in force..70% of the 7.5 million population of Baghdad is Shia…and who is arming the Shia…Iran…and who is arming Sunii..Saudia in general…

    Hayder told me on the phone that Bagdhad was quiet…only a few bombs this week ( what a way to live ) Hayder also provided me with a VPN for next time the social media gets shut down…LOL…he’s a star…
    Anyhow, its all messed up…!
    Icing on the cake:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28408926

  • Anas Sarwar: on the indyref bus with Labour on the move
    Palestine is a ghetto…not unlike Wasaw in 1940 (?) unfortunatelly, poverty supresses education and free thought is lost. We an others created this problem in 47 (?) we suffered from mass guilt over the treatment of jews in the camps…sponsored and still sponsor ( US especially ) a displaced nomadic people in a land we took them back to called Israel…just happened there was already a nomadic people there…the palestinians.

    I dare say I would strike out at Israel if I was in Gaza…but I cannot put myself in that mind set…I live on another planet…and I come from a differnt culture…I was not taught from birth to hate Israel, neither were my parents or their parents… the only way to move forward is a two state solution, it has to be a two way peace..education and the end of radicalisation of children…the chances of that given the evolving stage that islam is going through in some quarters is very, slim…education takes investment…maybe if we ( the west) invested the same in Palestine as we do in Israel…peace would find a way (?)

    In regards to ISIS here in Iraq…well the extreme elements of sunni militants all went off for jihad in Syria once the US pulled out of here nearly 3 years ago…jumped on the media invented ” arab spring” and entered the urban battle fields of Syria…Assad warned of the concequences ( did he not)…anyways, We know what the outcome of a sunni uprising was in Syria…strange it does not get more than a line in a news paper nowadays, yet thousands are dead, millions displaced….ISIS and all of there spin offs are been chased out of Syria…and are now up north and N west of Iraq….killing shia, killing christians…killing moderate sunni.
    The majority of the Iraqi army ran off…why ? because they are underpaid and sunni.
    The militia ( tribes) run Bagdad and everything south…Shia, 25 million of them, they are the army in Shia Iraq…

    Going deeper the water is now finding its own level once again…Back to the days prior to Laurence of Arabia, Gertrude Bell…and Churchills WW1second choice second front ( after Gallipolli) back to the Shia/ sunni / kurd caliphate….back even beyond the Ottoman….Libya is going back to its tribal areas too… as are so many Islamic areas.

    We drew all the lines on the map way back when without thinking about the social and cultural implications…our near ancestors have a lot to answer for.

    Anyways…back to Gaza…whats going on is terrible…but its far more complex than a few missles…you can’t have a one way peace…it has to be a two way peace. I hope for change…but cannot see change…. the planet is going bonkers.

  • Darling launching pro-union Tourism Together on Loch Lomond this morning
    Well John…extremist actions based on some sort of bastardisation or weird misinterpretation of any religion does nobody any favours…QED

    World arm trade is I am affraid outside of my remit…

    As for 3 day week…LOL…doubt I will ever be around to see that….

  • Anas Sarwar: on the indyref bus with Labour on the move
    Errrr? what on earth could be construde as been a reason is beyond me…they are not even targeted at anything other than towns and kibutzz. Hamas ramped up the problem…baited the bull etc…

    If criminal acts are a reason to launch rockets at another country…then we best build shelters now.
    Just check what is happening to the scum that killed the Israeli lads…and what is happening to the scum that killed the Palestinian lad…one is based on law, the other is based on war !

    Normal humans do not launch rockets into a country because of a criminal act caused by a few criminals.
    I like everybody else feel Israels is going OTT…but when do they not ? surely by now the Islamic extremists know the reaction that will happen ? their innocents will be caught in the cross fire….do they really care ? the extremists do not care…

    Anyhow…we agree the reaction is as ever OTT…what would be an acceptable reaction ? beats me. The world is not such a nice place at the moment…and I cant see it getting any better can you ?
    Anyhow…this blog isn’t large enough to go into the history of conflict between these two peoples…the cultural differences, religious and otherwise…the socio economics caused by politicians to suppress and manipulate the masses….

    Only option is a two state option…until then ( don’t hold your breath) the death of innocents will continue…poor people.
    Hammas are the scum of the earth…like you say…they are happy to be martyrs…and happy to take innocents with them.

powered by SEO Super Comments

67 Responses to Aye. folk on Tiree are rubbing salt in …

  1. Cheers Malcolm for the photo…and to think upwards of 300 of these turbines will start only 5km from our shore.

    Quick correction: Smoothy Coated Otter a mesopotanian sub-species has not been seen since the early 80′s…local Ma’dan (marsh arabs confirm they know of no otters in the area)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Cheers Karl – I’m about to make a 3D model of the seabed under the proposed array – because flat it ain’t – I would imagine there are horrendous costs involved in trying to position 100′s of turbines at set distances apart. It will take time to make the model but I will forward it to NTA when ready.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Thanks…if you ever get over to Tiree and the weather is amicable I will take you out to Skerryvore…hell of a place…skerries, races and shallows everywhere…makes me wonder how they will ever get large construction vessels in and out of the area, on 9 out of 10 days it’s pretty complex even in a rhib…maybe the whole project is a red herring to throw us off the other two proposed larger developments to the north and south of us ? only time will tell eh ?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  2. “On top of this we can also expect a substantial reduction in windspeeds on Tiree of possibly as much as 20%”

    Clearly an emotional piece but where’s the direct link to this paper you refer to – it would be nice to read the findings objectively.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  3. Using airborne and satellite SAR for wake mapping offshore
    22 Mar 2006 … suggested deficits of up to 20% downstream of the last turbine, whereas satellite SAR- … detected region of reduced wind speed had the same width as the wind turbine array: Horns Rev in the North Sea and Nysted in the Baltic. …..Downwind variation of velocity deficit for (a) aircraft SAR in CVV, …
    onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/we.196/pdf -
    It will cost you a few quid !
    You can also try doing a search for “reduction in downwind windspeed 20% horns rev” some information on wake affect…but it is important to note that this has to be viewed from the last turbine (I state ‘possibly’ because this is based on an 80 turbine model and not the permetations that will add up to 1Gw currently granted to the Argyll aka Tiree Array…anywhere between 150 to 300 plus turbines) hope this helps…the wake affect is of primary interest to the developer and relates to the theoretical ‘Rochdale envelope’ ie how much energy is taken out the wind by the turbines and where to place ajoining turbines to maximise the available wind…
    I have spent 2 and a half years reading so many….BORING ! studies.
    Karl

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • I wonder how many turbines in Scotland are underperforming due to ‘wake effect’ during the recent and continuing spell of winds from between north and east, rather than the prevailing southwesterlies that must have been factored into the tower layout studies?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Hi, I would hope the developers use a wind tunnel to provide them with all the options…seems sensible enough ? all these companies have a general idea or business models of their developments so one wonders why SPR will not answer our questions ? after all they are the paid experts and we are the unpaid layman.

        Karl

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Yes…much like our own community owned ‘Tilley’…one of the best producing turbines in europe…lets make it clear I am pro-community wind projects.

            Developers do take into consideration spacing of turbines in arrays to minimise wake effect on other adjacent turbines and therefore optimise the available energy in the wind.

            Just noted an update on the Scottish Power Renewables website FAQ’s: states:
            27. Does the recent delay to the project timescales mean there are problems with the project, and that it is therefore unlikely to be built?
            ScottishPower Renewables believe that the Argyll Array site offers good development potential. As a responsible developer, we wish to ensure all potential effects of the development are given detailed consideration prior to application. ScottishPower Renewables is committed to continuing investment in the project.
            If the above is factual, Then why will they not address the communities questions on percieved local climate change ?…most likely because all studies so far have been after development of wind power stations and they are not at the moment legally bound to do so…legislation is out of pace with development…this is a massive failure on behalf of the Scottish Government, Marine Scotland and SNH.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  4. It’s not the flatness of the seabed south of Tiree that counts, it’s the relative shallowness of the water.

    Maybe SPR would be more amenable to asking questions about the Array if protesters were willing to use it’s given name.

    There must be similar developments in the waters around Denmark. Has anyone checked what happens around them?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Off on a Tangent here are we not ? Horns Rev is a sand/shale sea bed with previously no fish breeding grounds, the Horns reef environment sub surface cannot be compared with the Tiree Array location…Skerryvore reef is schist/gabbro and granite and supports breedind grounds for a number of species…the local fishing fleet may I add is anti the development.read up on deposition damage etc

        However, we are talking at this stage of wake and micro climate affects to the landmass not seabed disruption or damage…this issue will be addressed at a later date.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • The study you refer to is in the north sea (?)…I think you will find there were no or minimal fish in the area prior to the construction of the array due to the sea bed not been suitable for breeding. or providing large areas of cover..sand/mud/shale…so yes in this area it is good news…whereas fish already breed in the Skerryvore area and that is why the GND turn up there…it is a spawning ground…sediment deposition through drilling and ploughing in skerryvore would simply disturb these breeding areas and compound the harrasment that ‘could’ come with the development….

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • I would beg to differ – what you’re saying is purely speculation. The leg/s of a turbine would blend in perfectly as steep artifical reefs in an area with so many natural peaks . You quote ‘ incredibly fast tides’ and ‘huge swells’ in one statement and then worry about sediment deposition in another? A bit of a contradiction surely? Where do you anticipate this ‘sediment’ coming from? The construction process? As for GNDs – they seem to do fine up in the some remote hill lochans on the Argyll mainland within a stones throw of wind farms.
            You want to back your arguments up with some real science otherwise you put yourself in danger of being perceived as just another whinging Nimby.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Mr Viking..Correct me if I am wrong but my original letter was in reference to micro/nano climate change

            However; In reference to your comments…I hope the simplistic answers below will help you….

            ‘The leg/s of a turbine would blend in perfectly as steep artifical reefs in an area with so many natural peaks’ I never said anything about legs blending in ? the fish spawn in the nooks and crannies…ravines and gullies where they can escape been bottom of the food chain….not on the legs open to swell and tide…I would also subjectively add that given the millions of years of evolution involved in construction ecosystems and the species designed to function in such an eco system, their preference of habitat would be what they are designed for ie: natural terrain.
            “You quote ‘ incredibly fast tides’ and ‘huge swells’ in one statement and then worry about sediment deposition in another? A bit of a contradiction surely? Where do you anticipate this ‘sediment’ coming from?”
            If you drill a hole in concrete you get dust (rock flower) from the hole…no ? if you drill into granite to place a huge steel tube you generate sediment in the same way…sub surface cableing is also ploughed/trenched into the sea bed, this also produces turbitity…this sediment falls on the sea bed smothering the ecosystem that has developed without the existance of rock flower…
            “You want to back your arguments up with some real science otherwise you put yourself in danger of being perceived as just another whinging Nimby”.
            I am a NIMBY and I have no problem with that…as for the science, where it exists I think you will find I use it. Where the question exists and the answer does not one would expect the science to be evolving.
            “As for GNDs – they seem to do fine up in the some remote hill lochans on the Argyll mainland within a stones throw of wind farms”. In line with your comments on aquatic life…Educate yourself before diving into with such ill informed comments…diver species winter in the marine environment…we are talking about over wintering not breeding,(few if any breed in Scotland, they in general arrive from Iceland….that is why the Icelandic equivelent of the RSPB are also taking such an interest in the Tiree aka Argyll Array)…. I am sure any self respecting GND would be mighty disapointed to turn up at a frozen lochan in the depths of a Scottish winter…:http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/g/greatnortherndiver/index.aspx

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • “Educate myself” – It’s not me that needs educating – perhaps you should tell the GNDs that inhabit Argyll freshwater lochs/lochans they’re not supposed to be there according to your RSPB link.
            “Rock flower” – I’m guessing that’s a typo not some alpine plant? Having spent a considerable amount of time working in the Skerryvore area I am more aware than most of the conditions likely to be encountered. I would suggest that any ‘rock flour’ or sediment caused by drilling in such an environment would dissapate very quickly. Aren’t the sandy beaches of Tiree made from the same stuff – that doesn’t seem to be a problem?

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Mr Viking
            42% of the UK’s overwintering GND are found in the inshore waters around Tiree…jncc.defra.gov.uk/pdf/JNCC416_web.pdf document also refers to the area being overly acceptable as an SPA…(apportioned SPA protection with this acceptance)
            Thats 9% of European population
            Rockflour: Drilling Technology in Nontechnical Language books.google.com/books?isbn=0878147624
            Tiree is famed for its white ‘shell ‘ sand beaches and windblown shell sand machair.
            Enjoy

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Shame on anyone who condenses Great Northern Diver to GND – remember that, as an HB, you’re two-a-penny compared with them.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Respectfully Mr Mackenzie,

      TCDT,A&B council, Marine Scotland and the Crown Estates were contacted at the outset as to the naming of the Array. All parties could not comprehend why the Array had been given the name ‘Argyll Array’…Arrays are normally named in reference to their local geographic or population center…we have been told that the name ‘Argyll Array’ was given for purely commercial reasons. No deference to either gaelic or the encumbant population was sought by SPR…from the outset SPR has not consulted in other than a ‘tick the box’ fashion with the general community of Tiree.

      Horns Rev is in Denmark ! and following on from my other two gems of knowledge…Protesters, Objectors and supporters who live on the island have constantly asked SPR to both change the name…and provide information on how they either plan to study post construction the micro climate issues that could affect Tiree and how they would mitigate any detrimental affects….this is an issue that causes great concern in our community.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • I’m trying to contact an ‘old sea dog’ friend who now lives in Denmark – in fact not too far from the newly announced massive wind farm – we’ll see what he says about seabed conditions there compared to Tiree

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Suggestion….why don’t you try getting an answer out of SPR to the simple question: will Tiree suffer from micro climate change ?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  5. I understand each leg has to be within 1 metre length of the others – believe me – and I have the Admiralty chart in front of me – that is going to be difficult.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • I see it’s too early in the morning for you – There are 4 legs supporting the turbine base – they have to be the same length + or – 1 metre. Karl is that measurement top or bottom?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • :) They are a little longer if I measure them from the top…!

            It will be very interesting to see what SPR actually see as been the technical solutions to both the incredibly fast tide and the awesome swell we get on this side of the island…on the outer reef we get both winter and summer storm swells of well over 15m …add to that the winter storms of 100mph plus…and they have a huge task on their hands.

            Of note is that the average summer swell is +2m…I have spent a lot of time out at Skerryvore both by kayak and rhib and one has to wonder, taking all of the above into consideration how long it would take to construct (hypothetically of course)given down time for weather it will take years…wait for the news but they will either drop the project for a multitude of fiscal and environmental reasons or they will reduce the size to a bare minimum to secure the lease…

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • The probability is the legs would have to be drilled into the bedrock…they will not be pile driven, so the levelling of the support table ‘is’ theoretically possible…much as the jack up rigs used in O&G exploration. Drilling in granite is pretty simple as their are few if any subsurface voids once you get past the weathering layer.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  6. Well Tim this is your chance – In my rush earlier I produced that statistic from memory of something I have read recently – and it was in my head because I’ve start making the model of the tortuous seabed south of Tiree . I’m off to Oban with my better half to do the shopping, could you do a little research in the meantime and prove me wrong. I’ll be happy to admit an error if that is the case. I think I maybe read it somewhere on the NTA website !
    Dr Douglas – I would have thought most even minded people would shown interest in the picture at the top of the page – its all to scale – so what are you trying to be clever about ?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Having done the original conceptual visualisations for the array,I can vouch for MK’s diagrams…they are spot on in the sizes we have been told (height to nacel, span etc), reference to actual dimensions of the supporting bases only SPR will know the engineering designs, and no doubt given the local environs something pretty radical will be necessary. I refer you to the NTA website for further information. Karl

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • My surprise is based purely on my lay knowledge of the size of base needed to both support a structure that is over 200m in height and withstand the sea conditions likely to predominate off Tiree (including fifty year waves). Most of the offshore wind farms to date have used monopoles and for a turbine of this size, you would need a monopole that is at least 5m in diameter. Thus I cannot see how the structure could be supported by 4 skinny legs. And why four legs? Most of the multi-leg structures are tripods.

        I will bow to someone with a knowledge of civil engineering but I cannot see how such a large structure could be supported on this narrow and multi-leg base.

        A better solution may be to move the array into deeper water and use tethered structures. That would presumably keep everyone happy.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Yes 35 km offshore would keep everybody happy…except the JNCC ref: Stanton Banks & MCA: Ref: Shipping lanes…and Crown Estates who obviously are drip feeding leases.
          Monopile (90% objective on this) can only be used on sediment based sea beds…couple of companies are looking at extremely large concrete bases…custom made to the shape of rocky seabeds. Piles (multiple) can be drilled into rock…though saying that it is a labourious slow task…and the weather window and maybe environmental constraints (Basking Shark hot spot in summer/Great Northern Diver hotspot in winter) would also have to be figured in.
          Offshore deep water tetherd development is in it’s infancy…but Portugal, Norway etc already have test turbines. Whatever SPR propose also has to be proven tech…ie 3 years this is a legal requirement.
          Also of note is the average swell that current vessels can work in…nothing available at the moment that can work in the swell off Tiree ! plus O & M HS regulations firstly only allows boat transfer in seas of 2.5m…one should also be aware that current HSE legislation does not allow transfer by Helicopter if a loadmaster is not already on a turbine…
          Wind sector renewables HSE performance for it’s employees is currently abismal…there is a drive to get working HSE-MS in place but the combined hazards of working at sea, working at heights, electrical work, confined access work are proving very challenging to the industry as a whole…the wages are poor in comparison with oil and gas O&M and the positions limited.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Good points Karl. Like Stephen, you will find that I will give a lot more support to a reasoned and factual argument than to some of the more lurid fantasies that are deployed against wind power.

            My mentioning of monopoles was just to illustrate how large a structure would be needed – not to suggest that a monopole would be applicable here. Gravity based anchors would be tricky as well. I will be interested to see what the engineers actually come up with (if it ever gets that far).

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Ref above comment:
            Understood Dr Mackenzie.
            The height in the illustrations is correct…there is some conjecture as to the type of turbines ie: generation capacity and the actual methodology etc of fixing the structure to the sea bed. Both would realistically only be known once sea bed is surveyed…and type and size chosen (one would presume) upon type of turbine available so many years down the line, plus capacity of the total array divided by number of turbines.. . SPR during an arranged fact finding trip to Barrow did point out that multiple pile is the most likely type of anchor/base etc.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  7. I’ll clarify: was talking about microclimate alteration around existing large wind farms, not how the pylons are secured, though accurate info on that would be interesting too.

    Though, seriously, an anatomically correct illustration of a turbine that you don’t actually know how it will be secured to the seafloor is in fact a guess. And makes me very sceptical about the rest of the illustration.

    The turbulence of the skerryvore waters and the state of the seabed sound like genuine problems. Well done. If you can avoid mixing those up with climate change denialism and statistically naive claims about Irish renewables people might start to take you seriously.

    As for the name, yes Tiree Array is a better, geographically accurate name. However that’s not what the promoters of the project call it. Surely it’s best to reduce confusion to a minimum by using consistent terms of reference?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Refere you to earlier comments and that these are theoretical not factual…based on available information provided by the developer.
      “If you can avoid mixing those up with climate change denialism and statistically naive claims about Irish renewables people might start to take you seriously”. not actually sure this comment has any relevance unless you are trying to get a knee jerk reaction from me…the Ireland reference is beyond my comprehension. FYI we have two ex members of BAS (British Antartic Survey) and myself who has worked on seismic surveys and glacial melt surveys in Iceland…so we are also well up to speed on percieved ‘human accelerated Global warming’…
      None of the island based people involved in NTA are anti-wind…all island based supporters, supported and continue to support Tilley our comunity turbine, several have turbines in their gardens…it would be fair to say that Tiree is a lot further along the quest to minimal emissions than a huge proportion of folks on the mainland…
      Yes we can all be classed as NIMBY in regards to the Tiree Array…but that is because we don’t want it for valid and rational reasons and the pro-wind lobby does not work on a case by case basis and is inclined to throw us in the pot with extremist elements of the anti-leauge…if some of our current reasons of objection seem purely subjective this is totally down to the developer and facilitators not entering into a meaningfull dialogue with the encumbent community… if we don’t highlight probability we never know if it will be fact.
      It would have been far to simplistic to stay on a local basis in regards to objection…this array is of strategic importance, as such many issues that are highlighted by other campaigns are also relevant to our case…
      “As for the name, yes Tiree Array is a better, geographically accurate name. However that’s not what the promoters of the project call it. Surely it’s best to reduce confusion to a minimum by using consistent terms of reference?” Glad you agree with the name…so do Marine Scotland, SNH, A&B council, Crown Estates , Tiree Community Development Trust, etc…confusion over naming has not been an issue in our quest to highlight the uniqueness of the set of problems the Array presents to the folk who live on and visit Tiree…in fact it has highlighted a few facts:
      the first been that the developer from the outset did not consult with the local community…
      anybody doing an online search for Tiree instantly becomes aware of the array…also with us often refering to “Tiree aka Argyll Array” in corespondance an internet search comes up with again, items highlighting the Arrays location and the issues it creates…

      can’t actually remember how long we have been chipping away at this now but 3 years and several million internet hits later is not far off…

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  8. So you’re not deliberately calling it by a different name so that all web searches on that name hit “anti” pages? Good. Because that would be disingenuous and patronising.

    It’s Malcolm Kirk who keeps going on about Irish renewable generation as if it was relevant to Scottish generation–and wilfully ignoring well-meaning attempts to set him straight on, you know, the facts. You have been reading his comments, haven’t you? I assumed you two were associated in some way–apologies if not. Outfits likes SPR will not respond to cranky stuff like that. You have to be careful to only make claims that are actually true.

    I have no reason to doubt that SPR are being awkward and unreasonable, this is what developers do all over the world. However, they are there and in a position of power. If you want to communicate with them you will have to learn their language.

    I’m not sure you understand what a theory is. Denying climate change is very convenient if you’re opposed to big renewable developments, but you have to deny an awful lot of basic science to make it stick. Don’t think that’s going to work.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Ok…but please be aware I understand how multi nationals work…my budget for this Iraq work is currently $47m…(writing this from Basra) and yes I work for oil companies, gas companies, renewable companies…and Uncle Tom Cobbley !
      As for the name of the array…even the pro lobby on Tiree call it the Tiree Array…calling it the Argyll array was a calculated effort by SPR to remove it from a geographical feature and population density and give folk the idea it was out towards god knows where…given Argyll used to run from Cape Wrath to the Mull of Kintyre it could be anywhere, no ? calling it the Argyll Array…kind of bit them on the arse..:)
      In Ref to: ‘You have to be careful to only make claims that are actually true”. we make claims where they are true…if we only have subjective based questions or information we (on a case by case basis) run it past the facilitator…Marine Scotland…if they correct us we go with the correction and work objectively…
      However, much as For Argyll is a catalyst for debate because it contains some subjective articles…I/we find that such an MO has it’s value…

      MK assists NTA with good quality diagrams…check the http://www.no-tiree-array.org.uk/…you will see the bases are pretty well spot on…folks personal opinions are the same as my own…personal.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • I really do think that we have a good mix of folk involved in these chats…I have learnt much from all sides of the coin…these For Argyll wind topics have so far not been hijacked by the extremist elements (pro and anti) we all strongly argue our corner with a fair bit of tongue in cheek craic…I hope it continues, if we all keep an open mind we will and occasionally put ourselves in the other persons shoes reach some sort of common understanding…I think(?) it was O.Cromwell who said’I may not agree with what you are saying…but I would defend your right to say it” we would all do well to remember this…

          To that end it could be benificial to have For Argyll dedicate a page to renewables in general (?)

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • There’s no denying the quality of Malcolm’s graphics and animations – good to see them being put to objective uses some of the time :-)

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • An excellent piece…what can I say other than their are points that are totally new to me…and it is good to start the day with new knowledge the arguments at face value seem to be solid as do the solutions…phew!
      Interesting to note the 1c+ change…this is what ‘could’ happen on Tiree within 8 years…maybe we are just a lab !
      Karl

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • No time for a detailed critique but I would just note (as a scientist) that if you claim scientific authority for anything you provide references or evidence for your claims, Mr Haseler provides neither.

      There was one bit I agreed with though: the priority for energy management should be conservation.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Hi Dr McKenzie…

        I never accept anything in regards to the ‘debate’ without checking source etc..and to that end you have caught me trying to contact the author…interesting non the least. And yes, we could meet our 20% reduction by drastically cutting down on the waste…(thinking outside the box would the saving not affect the power companies profits ?)

        Bloody hot here today…might end up sat at this computer all day uugh!

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • I can’t assess the climate science bit as I’m not qualified to do so. I find disquieting the suggestion that SG policy should be based on the direct effects of climate change on Scotland alone, ignoring the wider global effects. Even if one was being this ‘selfish’, the indirect effects on our economy from big climatic changes elsewhere in the world are surely not insignificant?

        I couldn’t work out what the repeatedly-made point about a ‘holocaust’ of winter deaths was about. Is it that we should be welcoming global warming in Scotland, in order to reduce this? Is it that Scotland’s main problem is fuel poverty? If the latter, there is no discussion or acknowledgement about the rising cost of fossil fuels being the main driver for this at present.

        I would like to see some independent evidence for the claim: “According to estimates, wind energy is economic suicide for Scotland, leading to far more jobs being lost than created, largely because it has always been known that the main benefit goes to the manufacturers, of which there are none in Scotland.” How does this differ significantly from other major economic, and particularly energy sectors? I don’t believe that there are no companies in Scotland involved in manufacturing for the wind industry. The government claims that more Scots are now employed in the renewables sector than in the whisky industry – where is the detailed evidence that they are wrong? There is also significant work going on to develop Scottish expertise in offshore wind and tidal power, skills which we can then sell to the world. The claim that jobs in the renewables industry are uniquely ‘mythical’ is made with tiresome frequency, and with (as usual) no comparison with other industries.

        I agree strongly with Mr Haseler & Doc’s point that the focus of energy use & emissions reduction should be on energy conservation and reducing waste, particularly in the transport and space/water heating sectors. This does not mean we can sidestep changes to our electricity system – we need to do both.

        Finally there is much speculative stuff about the engineering practicalities of incorporating wind and other intermittent renewables into the power system. E.g “The scale of pump storage is so huge that it is beyond our ability to predict the required scale needed to supply sufficient backup.” That is simply nonsense – to claim that calculating the required backup for a particular combination of generation plant is ‘beyond the ability’ of the engineering professions involved is ludicrous – backup and storage plant has been designed and used over many decades, and the challenges of balancing generation may be growing substantially, but they are not new. There is also an apparent misunderstanding of the role of nuclear, which can provide base load but cannot be used as ‘backup’ for anything due to its inability to be economically started up or shut down on anything shorter than a seasonal basis.

        Some interesting food for thought in there, but as Doc notes above, a distinct lack of convincing references or evidence for many of the claims.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Hi, I concur with both you and the doctor…
          The submission needs further research…and I too prefer a “ref”…if we are going to bash this thing to a rational conclusion we best do so with solid answers (“how fickle ye weather is”)where available !

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Karl, I pity you holed up in the furnace of Iraq today – it would be hard to imagine a more cracking day on the W Coast. Would love to be on Tiree myself…

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Aye. folk on Tiree are rubbing salt in by sending me photographs…no place like the West Coast when the weather is good or the weather is wild…enjoy it…

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • I thought we all had agreed that gas stations can be fired up in one hour should more than the base load from Nuclear be required. No? A quick story – a few years ago we owned and ran the Lord of the Isles Bar and Restaurant at Craobh Haven. On one particular evening the lights starting dimming and a voltage test showed 215v. We phoned the Hydro Board and someone – somewhere in Scotland – said ‘ OK we’ll open up the Oude dam a bit’ (That’s a small reservoir 15 minutes up the road towards Oban.) Low and behold within minutes the light came back up. Couldn’t have done that using wind turbines !

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • Malcolm – good story. You don’t say why the lights dimmed in the first place – presumably too long ago for it to have been a drop in output from a wind farm? Hydro is my personal favourite – it’s just great for backup & load following – we’ll need some more of that too!

            Not quite sure what you were asking with the point about nuclear/gas – was this a reference to my earlier post?

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          • My wife and I holidayed for years in Craobh Haven, we well remember Malcolm Kirk running the Lord of The Isles Bar. Fortunately, he did not last long. If they had installed a “Bullshitometer” at that time it would have been in the Red Zone.
            Its fair to say that we stopped going to Craobh Haven becuase it had become dominated by a small group of people. At night when walking the Dog it was really depressing, all those empty holiday home houses. It was like holidaying in a Ghost town or one of those old wild west Film sets, only the tumbleweed was missing.
            My wife and I began to feel guilty about the fact that the locals could no longer afford to buy a home. It had become dominated by the Malcolm Kirk very self opinionated gang.
            My wife and I have just returned from another wonderful holiday nearer to Oban, we really enjoyed meeting the locals.
            We love Islay but don’t like Port Charlotte. Here again a small place dominated by outsiders. Port Ellen at the other end of the Island is so different. Wonderfully friendly locals.
            Malcolm Kirk now appears to be the worlds expert on Windfarms. No doubt this may be motivated by the fact that they do spoil the view and affect the property values of those who have bought up some of the best places in Scotland and then ruined them.
            The world has an obligation to try all types of renewable energy options. The efficiency will improve given time. The trials with using Windpower to store energy as liquid air appear to solve the problem of what to do with the energy when the wind is blowing yet there is no power demand.
            Phil Coombes. I am a spokesperson against the “llys Dymper Windfarm” on the Denbigh Moors North Wales. My reason for objecting is because Wales is on track to exceed its energy targets from Wind Energy. TAN-8 sets out quite clearly were the Wales Assembly want these Turbines to be located. Llys Dymper is outside of a designated area and is within an area of outstanding natural beauty near to an SSI.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Bloody Hot: I have not in 2 years of been involved in the ‘renewables debate’ recieved this amount of mail in one morning before…regarding discontent !

      1) Chemical Industry Threatens To Exit Britain Over Green Energy Costs – Financial Times, 1 May 2012

      2) 15% Of Germans By Face Fuel Poverty – Handelsblatt, 30 April 2012

      3) Now A British Shale Oil Revolution Too? – Formby Times, 1 May 2012

      4) The Return Of King Coal? – The Australian, 28 April 2012

      5) China Taps US Coal – Radio Free Asia, 30 April 2012

      Plus on top of the above Shell announcement regarding commercial wind sustainability…(yes everybody, I know they are an oil company…but check their investment portfolio)

      Interesting times

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  9. For those of you enquiring for technical details please be aware that such requests have been asked of SPR since the o/set of Tiree (Argyll) Array in Feb 2009

    Only in June 2011 did SPR offer any visualizations and montages. For reasons, some raised by NTA, SPR has never posted, nor put these visualizations and montages in the public domain.

    Subsequent enquiry for technical information from SPR has been met with ,SPR’s a standard response best articulated as :-

    “ Can’t say…..won’t say… and only will say, when we put in our planning application “

    SPR have been so tardy in offering any information on their specific web-page for Tiree(Argyll )Array that it can hardly be a co-incidence that following NTA’s very recent submission to Marine Scotland re SPR’s failure to meet the L&C process’ minimalist public information standard, that SPR made the first update, since July 2011 , to their Tiree Array webpage . Similarly A&B Council gave a link to the SPR webpage for information re the Tiree Onshore Mapping exercise. NTA advised A&B Council to check the link, cos there was nowt there !!!

    Substantial technical information is on the NTA website (www.no-tiree-array.org.uk).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  10. I think you mean:

    “No puedo decir ….. no voy a decir … y sólo digo que, cuando ponemos en nuestra aplicación de planificación”

    or perhaps

    “¿Qué cambio climático”…………What climate change

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  11. …and yet it moves.

    Mind you, I concur with the point about SPR’s website. The information is sparse to say the least. And I agree that they should be a lot more forthcoming, especially with a project of this scale and impact.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  12. I have received a reply from my friend in Denmark re the massive wind farm to be built at Anholt on the East side of Denmark which somebody above had compared to the Tiree Array proposal . I quote” the Anholt windmill park is based on very shallow sandy waters, in fact the whole island is a sand reef with its own desert, and can’t be compared with the Skerryvore seabed at all. Please remember that without the tax relief and government subsidised Kw price when buying power from the windmills,nobody would be invested in the damn blights in the first place. I will reply more fully’

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>


All the latest comments (including yours) straight to your mailbox, everyday! Click here to subscribe.