Time to stop to think – as the cult sweeps into Campbeltown

For Argyll has warned for some time that Scotland is being led to becoming a one-party state, a condition which can only alarm anyone who still retains the clear headed wit to remember that democracy is the antithesis of this situation.

During the pro-indy campaign we heard the then First Minister, Alex Salmond, offer an endless list of other countries that an independent Scotland ‘could be like’. Somehow he forgot to mention Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, the model we seem to be well on the way to adopting.

The situation, however, is close to being out of control, with the party and its fervid acolytes doing everything at hyperspeed to make converts to the case, sign them up and get them programmed. Decent people are being whirled off their feet with the thrill of physical communality and togetherness in the digital age.

They are unable to see that what is happening is no less than the formation of a cult; that they are unconsciously adopting a cult mentality. This can never be anything other than dangerous – for personal and civic well being.

Here, from an academic study of the phenomenon, is a list of the characteristics of a cult:

  • ‘The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and [whether he is alive or dead] regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
  • ‪Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
  • Mind-altering practices [such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines] are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader[s].
  • The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel.
  • The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader [s] and members
  • The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
  • The leader is not accountable to any [external] authorities [unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations].
  • The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group.
  • The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
  • Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends [who may resist the movement], and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
  • The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
  • The group is preoccupied with making money.
  • Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
  • Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
  • The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave [or even consider leaving] the group.’

Who knows what those already inside this movement have the remaining objective capacity to observe in themselves – but those still outside it and with that capacity to observe, will immediately see a relationship between every one of these characteristics and what we are all witnessing going on around us.

Local affiliation societies of various kinds are springing apace out of the ground, with assistance from central bodies; and poor Campbeltown, with a local authority by-election, coincidentally, coming up shortly in South Kintyre, is getting a shedload of them all at once – just like that.

Three different affiliated groups are beginning together, Kintyre Women for Independence, Kintyre Greens and Common Weal in Kintyre.

The press releases for each, which arrived together over a period of six minutes and from a single source, like a tsunami in the Inbox, make clear the nature of what is happening.

We reproduce them verbatim and in their entirety, since their purpose, as well as proselytising, was to let people know how to get involved with them – and while warning about the profound longer term dangers of this cultism, we do not choose to act as censors.

The irony is that this movement is the antithesis of the independence it supports – but seems to be indicative of the form of ‘independence’ Scotland is adopting in a headlong rush.

The concern is not about whether or not any individual supports Scottish independence. It is about the imperative of maintaining a healthy society. This – managed – fervour is sweeping us further and further away from reason and genuine independence of thought.

It really is time to stop and think before it’s too late. Everyone should freely vote for whoever or whatever they wish. That’s democracy But for heaven’s sake, don’t make a cult of how you want to vote yourself. That’s brain washing.

Kintyre Women for Independence Press Release

‘The independence referendum may have passed but that hasn’t stopped women in Kintyre from gathering to share their inspiring stories of going out canvassing for a Yes vote or talking about the referendum with their families, friends and work mates. Recently a new group of Women for Independence in Kintyre was started with many women feeling that their interest in politics and shaping a new Scotland really started this year.

‘Kathleen Caskie from the national Women for Independence group gave a summary of how the national body had started and what they had achieved. All the women were keen to meet again on issues like protecting the health service and stopping the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership [TTIP] that could see public services opened to the private sector, regardless of devolution powers.

‘The passion and laughter of the women, and the enthusiasm of the children present made for an enjoyable evening. The next meeting is planned for the end of January but in the meantime women interested in finding out more about the local group can join the Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/womenforindependencekintyre .

‘Photo of Kathleen Caskie addressing the group.
Women for Independence; http://www.womenforindependence.org
Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/womenforindependencekintyre’

Women for Independence copy

Kintyre Greens Press Release

‘The Green Party in the Highlands and Islands is starting a new group in Kintyre. The first meeting of the group will be on Saturday the 29th November upstairs in the Argyll Arms Hotel in Campbeltown between 11am and 1pm for anyone interested in finding out about Green ideas.

‘The Scottish Green Party has had a surge in membership with an increase of about 400% in the last year and groups being set up across Argyll.

‘Marij van Helmond from the Argyll and Bute sub-branch will come along to talk about the national and Argyll wide activities and to meet local members. Interested members of the public are also welcome.

‘Meeting Venue: Upstairs Lounge, Argyll Arms Hotel, Main Street, Campbeltown
Date: Saturday the 29th November         Time: 11am to 1pm
Scottish Green Party http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk
Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kintyre-Greens/346738282170964 ‘

Common Weal Kintyre Press Release

‘The Common Weal is a national organisation that came out of the Jimmy Reid Foundation looking at a different way to run Scotland. It looks at how we could change from a survival of the richest society to an all of us first society.

‘As part of an Argyll Tour, Liam O’Hare and Phil Connor from the Common Weal are coming to Campbeltown on Thursday the 27th November to talk with the community about how we can work towards change and get the local perspective on the Key Ideas laid out on the Common Weal website http://www.allofusfirst.org .

‘To coincide with the public meeting there is now a Facebook page to keep people updated on the developments and ideas of the Common Weal in Kintyre https://www.facebook.com/commonwealkintyre .

‘Meeting Venue: Argyll Arms Hotel, Main Street, Campbeltown
Date: Thursday the 27th November         Time: 7pm to 9pm’

Try to laugh

Humour is a saving grace and the ability to laugh at oneself diffuses the inherent fervour of the zealot.

Included in one of the characteristics of the cult listed above, is ‘speaking in tongues’. Don’t worry if Scots Wha Hae is as far as you’ve got and you’ve never quite made it into that uncontrolled incoherence – yet. The state has help in hand for you.

The Scottish Government is prescribing – and the teaching profession is rightly resisting – that all children in school should be taught Scots Doric – the ‘Oor Wullie’ cartoon mode of speech.

With a recent major row following the BBC’s Countryfile choosing to put subtitles on an interview with a Northern Irish blacksmith, this move would breed generations of people who would be unable to progress in their personal lives and careers or to represent the interests of their country without interpreters.

That widespread need though, would breed a new swathe of pointless University courses and address the unemployment problem. Win win?

Even to consider using public funds to provide a compulsory universal service in teaching children a skill they will never need and which may impede them in earning a living –  while numeracy abilities have been measured as is being in steep and speedy decline in our primary schools – is fully unhinged. It is, though, more evidence of the drive to ‘cult’ivate Scotland.

One also has to wonder how this compulsory Doric gig would work in the northern isles of Orkney and Shetland, where their cultural linguistic base is very different. Flotillas of Our Wullie’s wandering around Bressay and Papa Westray are hardly a neat cultural fit.

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Related Articles & Comments

  • Oh dear.

    Ordinary people becoming politically involved.

    How alarming for you Newsie.

    What an insulting article.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 64 Thumb down 38

    Longshanks November 26, 2014 9:52 am Reply
    • This is not ‘political involvement’ as such, as it is understood – because it is unilateral political involvement and it is being recruited hard, as these three simultaneous initiatives demonstrate.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 27 Thumb down 52

      newsroom November 26, 2014 10:19 am Reply
      • What does that mean?

        The other parties are free to start/step up- a recruiting drive of their own – there has never been a better time with the country so politicised.

        So why aren’t they doing it? Is it the SNP’s fault, the Green Party’s fault, the Common Weal’s fault? Are they somehow supressing free speech in Campbeltown and Kintyre?

        (And these are three very different organisations, no matter how shrill your cries of conspiracy. They have a common cause in the same way that the unionist parties have common cause, but that is as far as it goes)

        NO. the other political parties aren’t doing it because in the eyes of the Scottish people they are morally bankrupt. There is no-one trustworthy, interesting or dynamic on the Unionist side for the rest of the country to turn to.

        Your talk of a ‘one-party state’ and a ‘cult’ is just so much nonsense parotted from the press releases and panicked tweets of members of the opposition parties, who are running scared and have nothing to offer.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 62 Thumb down 23

        Longshanks November 26, 2014 12:13 pm Reply
      • This is what newsie would probably describe as “the precipitate descent into the maelstrom of madness” – if she had any self awareness. Or perhaps: “We are now entering the wilder fringes of paranoia and cultist belief”.

        Call the asylum now chaps – it’s for her own good.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 23 Thumb down 4

        Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:32 pm Reply
        • You’re a bit late “Kassandra” – what kept you?

          Still attacking people without contributing to the argument, I see.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 22

          Lowry November 27, 2014 3:17 pm Reply
          • Call this load of bollocks an “argument” – you boys must be really hard up.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

            Kassandra November 29, 2014 8:16 pm
  • Just when the Smith Commission goes to print and Holyrood will have to stop being a Pretend Parliament.
    No more excuses, no more blaming Westminster!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 28 Thumb down 46

    richard November 26, 2014 10:18 am Reply
  • I agree ‘Longshanks’ people getting involved in politics is a good thing and whilst I also agree that ‘Newsroom’ has gone to far in making a point. I must point out that there is a minority element that would not counter an alternative point of view and verbally abused those who offered an alternative opinion. Those of us who thought the ‘Yes’ camp had not made a good enough argument for breaking up the ‘UK’ felt that it was not worth the verbal grief to voice our opinion and kept our own counsel. It is not a healthy state of affairs if a vigorous minority in one group does not countenance alternative views and basically shouts down anyone who disagrees with them. That is where ‘Newsroom’ is right we need more tolerance, more openness and less closed thinking.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 30 Thumb down 37

    Jim Clark November 26, 2014 10:19 am Reply
    • In the spirit of what you say, we have removed the joke which signed off the piece above.
      There is a distinction between vigorous political campaigning and a level of proselytising that enters the territory of the formation of a cult.
      This article is a genuine warning that that line has been crossed; and that sensible people need to consider whether they stay on the dangerous side of that line, join it or retreat from it – while retaining their wish to vote however they like.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 20 Thumb down 48

      newsroom November 26, 2014 11:11 am Reply
      • If ‘the cult’ supported your political views would the same article, with just the names changed, be written?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

        Steve November 29, 2014 1:04 am Reply
        • The issue here is that the majority of people, the No voters, are not behaving in the same way. They didn’t behave in the same hysterical manner before the referendum either – just quietly went about their business knowing exactly which way they were going to vote.

          The People of Scotland have spoken – those that don’t like it simply don’t know how to cope.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 11

          Lowry November 29, 2014 9:10 am Reply
          • The problem for some No voters who would get rid of Holyrood is they have been bounced into some more new powers. For those NO voters who believed Brown they now can see that they have been lied to again. Snp membership moving to 100000 Greens increased, Labour and Tories scared to say. Lib dems well they have imploded or is it exploded?
            The YES campaign in all its shapes and forms are not going to accept the status quo and folk like Lowry don’t understand. Too bad.

            The General election looms as Labour and Tories try and show who is tougher on immigration. The BBc tv spouts forth over the NHS etc forgetting that they are talking about the English NHS alienating Wales NI and Scotland. Increasingly even the English regions are saying enough of Westminster rule. Lowry if you were back in your birthplace who would you vote for?

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

            No Cheese Here November 29, 2014 8:03 pm
  • Why Campbeltown? The one thing we need is employment.
    All these groups can talk about the ideal world, unfortunately life is cruel and very often it consists of what you make of it,it’s ‘ambition ‘ that needs promoting! what are these groups doing to encourage young people, every day someone uses the most overworked words ‘poverty’ & food banks along with MSP’s talking about social housing and free prescriptions etc.
    My suggestion is that we use the promote ambition enthusiastically and help people up the ladder rather than leaving them parked in the Scottish Welfare world.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 24 Thumb down 42

    richard November 26, 2014 11:40 am Reply
  • The Nationalists claim moral superiority and demonise all opposition in the same way that a cult does. Much is made of food banks and inequality, yet what have the SNP done to address these problems? They have spent millions ( £45 million last year alone ) on a language spoken by 1% of the population. If the lion’s share of that was being spent on alleviating poverty it could make a difference but I don’t hear anyone on the Nationalist side pointing that out, let alone trying to do anything about it.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 34 Thumb down 45

    Digger November 26, 2014 12:00 pm Reply
    • The Nationalists claim moral superiority and demonise all opposition in the same way that a cult does.

      You could say exactly the same thing about the Labour Party, who assume they have a divine right to the Scottish vote.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 48 Thumb down 29

      Longshanks November 26, 2014 12:15 pm Reply
      • Two “wrongs” do not make a “right”.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 32

        Andrew Argyle November 26, 2014 7:15 pm Reply
        • They do in your case, Andrew.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

          Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:35 pm Reply
      • The Labour Party don’t use social media to encourage mobs to got out and shout down/ intimidate people putting forward opposing views or in some cases try to run them out of town. They wouldn’t allow their supporters unchallenged to threaten to boycott the businesses of people who don’t agree with them. These sinister elements would give any right thinking person cause for concern. The SNP could have condemned these tactics but instead tried to make light of them because it suited their purpose in silencing dissenting voices.The double standards are odious. Can you imagine the SNP reaction if Alex Salmond had been mercilessly heckled, assaulted and run out of town, especially if it had been an English town. I’m sure it wouldn’t have been ” man up, it’s all part of the rough and tumble of politics”.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 34

        Digger November 27, 2014 12:24 am Reply
        • Digger
          Which part of Scotland are you from? Glasgow?
          Were you there? Flag waving?
          http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/george-square-trouble-the-night-our-readers-became-reporters.1411314286

          No you can’t be — the good folk of Glasgow voted YES and more will come the next referendum.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 32 Thumb down 10

          No Cheese Here November 27, 2014 12:36 am Reply
          • I wholeheartedly condemn what happened in George Square, but it was a one off and after the vote. It was not a feature that ran throughout the campaign seeking to influence the outcome. If you don’t accept that far and away the majority of the intimidation, including the destruction of posters, was on the Yes side then you’re in denial and have no credibility. Are you one of the 16 thumb-downers who believe that spending millions on Gaelic should take priority over alleviating poverty and getting rid of food banks? Not only do they have no credibility, they’re hypocrites into the bargain. Interestingly you don’t say what you thought the SNP reaction would be to Alex Salmond, or indeed any Yes advocate, being treated in the way I described. Bearing in mind your credibility is already in question, would you like to enlighten us?

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 32

            Digger November 27, 2014 1:25 am
  • They’re a little late worrying about TTIP, the public sector has been contracting out services for decades, it’s how many council and government functions are done.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

    db November 26, 2014 12:13 pm Reply
  • Shock! Horror! Scot’s being taught to speak in Scots, what next. We’ve just got used to all these Gaylic/English road signs and now this.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 41 Thumb down 22

    Murdoch MacKenzie November 26, 2014 12:31 pm Reply
    • In fact pupils throughout Scotland have been exposed to Doric by enthusiastic English teachers for at least the last 30 years through novels such as Sunset Song and through Doric poetry.

      Similarly they have been introduced to Ayrshire dialect through the poetry of Robert Burns, and to Orkney, Shetland and Glaswegian dialects via poetry from these areas.

      Nothing to see here, move along.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 42 Thumb down 11

      Longshanks November 26, 2014 5:45 pm Reply
  • Whenever a dictator comes along what is the first thing they come down on, freedom of speech perhaps? What is the first thing they try to control, the press perhaps? What is it that they demonise, groups of individuals who might be a threat maybe………Non-Newsie you are on new and dangerous ground.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 48 Thumb down 19

    John Semple November 26, 2014 12:45 pm Reply
    • John
      “On new and dangerous ground”
      More likely on the mushrooms
      Or maybe I am
      And this is a vile non coherent bitter holucination
      Where am I??

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 30 Thumb down 4

      Hunchy the brave heart sniper November 26, 2014 10:19 pm Reply
  • What a sad, sad individual you must be when you again spout your venom at anyone or any group who do different from you. As someone who voted to keep the union together I find this article totally tasteless.

    I have many friends on one of these groups. Decent people who just want to be part of something. And that’s it, they are just part of a group.

    What next? Will your poison tongue bemoan the many many groups of people who live in our community?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 49 Thumb down 14

    Barbie Girl November 26, 2014 1:53 pm Reply
    • Whisper it softly – newsie is completely bonkers.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 3

      Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:38 pm Reply
      • Pot…Kettle, Kassandra.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 12

        Robert Wakeham November 28, 2014 1:02 pm Reply
        • I don’t think you want to draw much attention to people being completely bonkers Bob – I suspect you are on that slippery slope yourself, going by the content of your posts.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

          Kassandra November 29, 2014 8:20 pm Reply
  • The problem with you and your No conspirators is that you offer nothing. No Hope no vision. No No No
    Stop complaining and get off your butts and do something positive…..
    Your reference to a cult is demeaning but then I suppose it was meant to be.
    Is it your Irish upbringing that focuses your mind on such things? Orange order, loyaliism?
    Strange as just the other day BBC Radio Ulster had several speakers on complaining that Ulster Scotch! Or Ulster Scots was not a dialect but a language. Now surely you wont argue with your Irish kin.
    Mind you a loyalist referred to Gaelic ((Irish) as no more than toilet paper.
    Good old fashioned intolerance by newsie and the loyalist. Never!Never Never!
    You should have left it at home
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-30175407
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-30167847

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 43 Thumb down 26

    No Cheese Here November 26, 2014 4:20 pm Reply
    • Starting to get a tad tedious No Cheese Here.

      Born, brought up & educated in Argyll. Can trace paternal lineage back eight generations, all in Argyll. Can trace maternal lineage back seven generations to the East coast. Cried when Repp scored. Had the best 48 hours ever with Welsh fans at Edinburgh/Murrayfield (and that’s just the bits I can remember). Get goosebumps every time I hear the pipes & drums. Visited every historical clan grave. Chest pump whenever I hear ‘Flower of Scotland’. I voted No, am I a ‘No conspirator’ or a ‘little Englander’?

      I suggested on this website a progressive Tax regime for an Independent Scotland with an increase of 1p in the pound/Euro/Groat each year for the next 15 years. Is that ‘no vision’?

      I and others said the proposal for a 3% cut in Corporation Tax and the accompanying 15% reduction in tax for share holders in an Independent Scotland was immoral. Is that a wrong “No, No, No” attitude to have?

      As for your feeble and parochial vision of people from outwith your cave, well that’s your bag ‘my precious’.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 22 Thumb down 35

      John M November 26, 2014 9:03 pm Reply
      • You shouldn’t have to justify yourself to the likes of NCH.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 33

        Robert Wakeham November 26, 2014 9:57 pm Reply
        • I know Robert but his constant insidious drivel irritates after a bit.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 33

          John M November 26, 2014 11:29 pm Reply
          • Yes. Your constant insidious drivel however, just bores.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2

            Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:40 pm
      • @John

        ” Chest pump whenever I hear ‘Flower of Scotland’.

        After your NO vote John, tell me, during the above, is there any line you now eliminate?
        Tbh I wouldn’t have had the neck to sing the song at all if I lacked the belief in the people I share this country with in voting NO.
        There’s no way I’d risk the deserving hypocrite label you see.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 30 Thumb down 5

        JnrTick November 27, 2014 12:12 am Reply
        • “Tbh I wouldn’t have had the neck to sing the song at all if I lacked the belief in the people I share this country with in voting NO.
          There’s no way I’d risk the deserving hypocrite label you see.” – Off on one there Jnr, I don’t follow.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 26

          John M November 27, 2014 12:22 am Reply
      • I wouldn’t say that your proposals are misconceived, John, just that the BT camp are even less likely than the Indies to adopt them.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

        Arthur Blue November 28, 2014 12:18 pm Reply
  • “During the pro-indy campaign we heard the then First Minister, Alex Salmond, offer an endless list of other countries that an independent Scotland ‘could be like’. Somehow he forgot to mention Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, the model we seem to be well on the way to adopting”

    You call this journalism? You should hang your head in shame?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 48 Thumb down 23

    Erik the Viking November 26, 2014 5:14 pm Reply
    • The tip of the iceberg was announced today by our First Minister, I suggest she takes a good look at how many Estates and large farms are up for sale, just try Saville’s for this area.
      I haven’t seen a rush from the community or the Scottish Government.
      I expect they’ve sent a begging list to the European Commission for a drop of the last gasp ‘New Deal’ cash before the whole EU goes up in smoke.
      Soon there will be a new game for children when in the car, Count the For Sale signs.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 41

      richard November 26, 2014 6:44 pm Reply
    • Erik the Viking,

      Would you support Faroese-style autonomy for Orkney and Shetland “within the realm” of an independent Scotland?

      If not, please change your nom de plume to “Erik the Scot”.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 12

      Thorfinn Sigurdsson November 26, 2014 7:23 pm Reply
      • Oh thorfinn

        C’mon Battle of Largs 1263 – “…your guy’s took a hell of a beating” can’t think when I heard that!

        Anyway the illegal invader was repelled and the peaceful Scots regained their territory.

        All ends that ends well.
        Well still have the Isle of Man and Berwick to get back.
        Lol

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

        No Cheese Here November 28, 2014 9:20 pm Reply
    • To be fair, I don’t think she does call it “journalism”. I think “drivel” is the relevant word.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 3

      Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:42 pm Reply
  • I just wonder how many of the enthusiastic new group members are claiming benefits whilst spending endless hours working to establish these organisations.
    I hope the benefits officers are keeping an eye on people who may be claiming that they are unable to work. No doubt some are being watched.
    This thought also struck me when I saw numerous folk out canvassing on the streets and working hard for the Yes camp during the referendum campaign. If they are in receipt of benefits should they not be in employment instead?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 18 Thumb down 40

    Lowry November 26, 2014 7:36 pm Reply
    • They are all working for a better Scotland 🙂

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 36 Thumb down 19

      John Semple November 26, 2014 7:39 pm Reply
      • Need I say more?

        This is a typical response from someone who seems to support benefits cheats – so long as they are ‘working’ for the independence cause.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 20 Thumb down 39

        Lowry November 26, 2014 7:50 pm Reply
        • Lowry, read the rest of the legislation Ms Sturgeon announced today, top of the list, ‘No pursuing Poll Tax debt’
          Scotland, hooked on benefits!

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 33

          richard November 26, 2014 8:36 pm Reply
          • My family struggled to pay their ‘Poll Tax’ and am disgusted that the can pay wont pay mob are being given this special treatment. Its wrong in so many ways.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 30

            phill November 26, 2014 10:01 pm
          • Argyll and Bute Council last year collected only £174 of the £3.4million still owed, and South Lanarkshire clawed back just £31,409 of the £30.9million due.

            Poll tax debts in most of England were written off years ago.

            This is nothing to do with benefits. The frothing indignation of the blimps on here is getting more and more hysterical and less and less relevant.

            Is Newsie becoming a cult? All the signs are there . . .

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 35 Thumb down 9

            Longshanks November 26, 2014 11:04 pm
          • Longshanks – “Argyll and Bute Council last year collected only £174 of the £3.4million still owed”, can you evidence this?

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 31

            John M November 26, 2014 11:48 pm
        • Would it be reasonable to say then, given your outdated indefensible championing of this ‘on it’s last legs’ union, that you support successive Westminster governments, governments in complete control of the UK’s Social Security/Welfare where as you point out is and as been for decades, so exploited by so many?
          Are you also content to see successive Westminster governments turn a blind eye to the billions lost through corporations, big business tax evasion.
          We who like to take the moral high ground tut tutting and bumping our gums at benefit cheats or the work shy ought to question governments and policies that permit it but much much more important is the targeting of the far bigger fish who deny the UK treasury and our societies a heck of a lot more.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 25 Thumb down 9

          JnrTick November 26, 2014 11:42 pm Reply
          • Do you understand the difference between ‘tax evasion a d tax avoidance’?

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 22

            richard November 27, 2014 8:10 am
        • Sorry,

          It wasn’t last year, it was 2011

          Daily Express Article

          They probably didn’t collect any last year.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 24 Thumb down 7

          Longshanks November 27, 2014 12:14 am Reply
        • You’re a bit late Lowry – what kept you?

          Still attacking people without contributing to the argument, I see.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 3

          No Cheese Here November 27, 2014 5:59 pm Reply
    • Mindless allegations with no evidence whatsoever to back them up.

      Insinuation, intimidation, indignation . . . get a grip, Lowry.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 31 Thumb down 7

      Longshanks November 26, 2014 11:00 pm Reply
      • Funny that no-one’s denying it innit?
        I saw quite a lot of people and spoke to many that I know are on benefits – Argyll is a small place and I travel around quite a lot.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 21

        Lowry November 27, 2014 8:45 am Reply
        • Lowry

          Are you a money lender? you need a licence.

          Or are you visiting the food banks when you don’t need too?

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 21 Thumb down 3

          No Cheese Here November 27, 2014 9:34 am Reply
          • Neither, but I do know what I’m talking about. Obviously you agree too because you’re attacking me and not denying what I say. Ditto John Semple.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 21

            Lowry November 27, 2014 9:39 am
  • A step too far Newsroom, every wean should have a bucket to sit on to allow the contemplation of worldly events. Oor Wullie for FM!
    And don’t even think about starting on the Broons!!!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 35

    John M November 26, 2014 8:34 pm Reply
  • This independence movement, if this is what people wish to call it, has materialised because for many who voted NO, their eyes have been opened. Many would never, before the referendum, have considered Scotland’s independence, how viable, affordable, the whys etc. The cult of unionism subtly indoctrinated via our media, politics, normalisation of Royalty and so on made sure independence never entered people’s calculations.
    Thankfully through social media, the internet, we now live in an immediately accessible information-age-max where access to info e.g. the failings, the cheating, the lies, the exposing of propaganda perpetrated by the British establishment, our brainwashing media, our governments etc. We would never have encountered little of what has armed us pre-internet. There is absolutely nothing abnormal about any citizen of any country wanting their future determined by those who reside in that country just as every other nation does, some well, others not so.
    The emergence of the SNP in relatively recent times as a political party who’s interests are dedicated to this country, has exposed why all of the people of Scotland can no longer prosper unless gaining compete control of what can potentially affect all of our future. Westminster rule, even devolution has had adequate opportunity to progress the lives of the majority here.
    I notice the more rapid, some viewing as a dangerous rise in popularity of the rUK’s party, the UKIP, with their single issue has not attracted the same venom nor their slavish followers.
    Fear not the continued push for our independence for when it arrives, we can collectively reshape a country the rUK can follow, instead, fear the lemmings who wish to close and bolt the doors of the UK blaming all that depresses us in society on those who just as our expats have done, move to another country to better their life.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 31 Thumb down 11

    JnrTick November 26, 2014 11:21 pm Reply
  • What the hell is happening to the Scottish people? And what exactly do SNP supporters want that they don’ t already possess? “Freedom” and ” Democracy”?When I saw the reception Salmond got in Perth I last week I was immediately reminded of a Nuremburg rally. I’m beginning to feel very afraid!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 40

    Suzie Q November 26, 2014 11:25 pm Reply
    • Afraid of what exactly?
      Bloody hell, we have just witnessed one of the most peaceful, democratic, enlightening processes ever, where else would this have taken place with such dignity and tolerance. Be proud of this nation.
      People wishing to visit or live here if they have listened to anything the current Scottish government advocates must surely very quickly realise that this country (Scotland) is an open welcoming friendly country offering opportunity for those of all nationalities, can this be said of the other UKIP supporting countries within this union?
      It is clearly not only SNP supporters that ‘want’ something btw.
      Scotland within this imbalanced and unfair union due to our smaller population gets a government at general elections it despises or one it especially in recent times only elects to attempt to keep the other from having a say in Scotland’s future. So Suzie, do we really already possess “Democracy”? Regarding “Freedom” as you call it, few people I know refer to what we as supporters of Scotland’s normality as that. You may be watching too many Americanised trashy films?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 31 Thumb down 9

      JnrTick November 27, 2014 12:05 am Reply
      • Is ‘democracy’ a cross party group agreeing what they want and the SNP forcing it to be implemented despite having absolutely zero mandate from the electorate?

        Any when I say ‘zero mandate’, I expect the SNP supporters on here will agree because even they are not happy with the output from the Smith commission. So why are the population getting something foisted on them they never ever voted for or were asked about?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 19

        Jamie Black November 27, 2014 10:49 am Reply
    • Go on then Suzie, list three ways in which the SNP conference resembled a Nuremburg rally.

      (Assuming you actually know anything about the Nuremburg rallies, that is . . . )

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 28 Thumb down 10

      Longshanks November 27, 2014 12:16 am Reply
      • Spectacular arrogance from the man who can’t even spell Nuremberg correctly!

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 30

        Alasdair November 27, 2014 12:26 am Reply
        • What is arrogant about asking for some justification for such a vile slur?

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 25 Thumb down 8

          Longshanks November 27, 2014 1:01 am Reply
          • Your contempt for Suzie was glaring when you wrote “Assuming you actually know anything about the Nuremburg rallies, that is . .”

            It’s not big or clever to disparage someone giving their honestly held view, accusing them of being ignorant of history. For all you know Suzie’s own family was directly affected by people who took part in the Nuremberg rallies.

            My guess is you know less than you think, given your basic spelling error of the place you claim to know more about.

            Now by accusing Suzie of making ‘vile slurs’ you’re suggesting she’s an unpleasant person, interested only in smearing the people who disagree with her. That nasty attempt to demonise her is despicable. She holds a different view to you. That’s all. You, get a grip.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 25

            Alasdair November 27, 2014 1:24 am
          • I am sick of hearing Alex Salmond compared to Hitler and the SNP compared to the Nazis. It is a stupid, vile slur and no amount of blustering by you, Alastair, will make the slightest difference to that.

            You then have the barefaced effrontery to accuse ME of demonising someone. I am not demonising Suzie, She is demonising Salmond and directly comparing the SNP to the Nazi party.

            Your attempt to then reverse reality and accuse me of demonisation is newspeak of the highest order.

            I say again, please could you or Suzie list for me the similarities between the Nuremberg rallies and the SNP party conference, and explain to me what was so fundamentally different about the SNP conference and any other party conference?

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 25 Thumb down 5

            Longshanks November 27, 2014 9:35 am
          • You think these comparisons have no merit whatsoever Longshanks? Not asking you to agree with them, but can you see no reason why they are being made more and more often against the leader and the party?

            Incidentally, I notice who often Sturgeon has used the term ‘my government’ in recent days…

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 23

            Jamie Black November 27, 2014 9:44 am
          • I think the comparisons of Salmond to Hitler and the SNP to the Nazi Party are stupid, trite and, most seriously, trivialise the horrors the Nazi party brought to Europe.

            These are odious soundbites used by people with no constructive criticism to make. They make Newsie’s original rantings about cults sound moderate and considered by comparison.

            In answer to your question, no, these comparisons have no merit whatsoever and are an insult to the millions who suffered and died as a consequence of the rise of the Nazi Party and its actions.

            You should be ashamed of yourself for even asking the question.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 26 Thumb down 5

            Longshanks November 27, 2014 10:46 am
          • I can assure you my friend, I’m not ashamed for asking a question.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 21

            Jamie Black November 27, 2014 12:31 pm
          • Comment removed – I gave a misquote.
            Apologies

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

            Lowry November 29, 2014 7:44 pm
        • More Buenos Aires than Nurenberg.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 24

          Robert Wakeham November 27, 2014 1:01 am Reply
          • From Alasdair lol

            My guess is you know less than you think, given your basic spelling error of the place you claim to know more about.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 23 Thumb down 2

            No Cheese Here November 27, 2014 9:32 am
        • A Grammar Nazi – how ironic?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

          Erik the Viking November 28, 2014 10:03 am Reply
    • They can’t help themselves the No brigade.

      The only Hitler salutes I saw was in George Square with plonkers carrying the Unionist flag. In fairness many No supporters I know were appalled by their thuggery.

      Come to think about it maybe I should be afraid of such thugs as well. Now I am beginning to feel very afraid………

      Suzi Q what is happening to the Anglo Brits these days. You are scared of Europeans of all backgrounds …. What a weird world you and white van man find yourselfs in.

      Lol

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 28 Thumb down 12

      No Cheese Here November 27, 2014 12:32 am Reply
    • Maybe you should just consult a psychiatrist Suzie Q? Or just go back to being a Creedence Clearwater song.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

      Kassandra December 1, 2014 6:09 pm Reply
  • Our MSP gets kicked out of his ministerial job, finds he has a bit more time on his hands.

    At just the same time Longshanks reappears, comments on lots of articles here in the “I know better than you” manner we’ve grown used to.

    Coincidence?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 34

    Alasdair November 27, 2014 12:16 am Reply
    • That’s right, I’m Mike Russell.

      Are you for real?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 28 Thumb down 10

      Longshanks November 27, 2014 12:18 am Reply
      • No, I’m Mike …. er, which one is it my turn to be today?

        Headbangers.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2

        Chuck November 27, 2014 1:11 pm Reply
        • I thought I was Mike or was it another Mike?
          Anyway how come all those unionists wonder around all day thinking of Hitler and Facism.
          Do they like uniforms? Do they follow Prince Edward?

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 21 Thumb down 4

          No Cheese Here November 27, 2014 1:36 pm Reply
          • It’s common for right-wingers to be fascinated by uniforms, and authoritarian doctrines. Something to do with their toilet training, I think.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 21 Thumb down 5

            Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:48 pm
          • And left-wingers, believe it or not.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9

            Robert Wakeham November 28, 2014 10:26 pm
  • What utter drivel you are reduced to producing Newsie. Opinionated dross disguised as comment and camouflaged by crap.

    Can’t wait for the inevitable comments on the Land Reform Bill and your obsequious, toe-curling, lickspittle defence of the landed gentry of the Scottish Land and Estates. Cutting their NDR relief shock horror!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3

    Simon November 27, 2014 8:40 am Reply
  • What utter drivel you are reduced to producing Newsie. Opinionated dross disguised as comment and camouflaged by crap.

    Can’t wait for the inevitable comments on the Land Reform Bill and your obsequious, toe-curling, lickspittle defence of the landed gentry of the Scottish Land and Estates. Cutting their NDR relief shock horror!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 26 Thumb down 10

    Simon November 27, 2014 8:40 am Reply
    • Oh dear, more of the usual from Simon.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 27

      Robert Wakeham November 27, 2014 9:06 am Reply
      • Obviously the contribution to the Scottish economy isn’t worth anything,the employment and skills.
        Let’s get rid of all these things so we can score a few points with the masses in the central belt.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 21

        richard November 27, 2014 10:07 am Reply
      • So which are you Robert, pot or kettle?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 6

        John Semple November 27, 2014 10:46 am Reply
        • Why do I have to be either? More crab, probably.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 17

          Robert Wakeham November 27, 2014 12:44 pm Reply
          • Shrimp, I would say.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 5

            Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:49 pm
      • Pot, kettle, I think is your stock reply, Bob.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 4

        Kassandra November 27, 2014 2:49 pm Reply
        • Kassandra! – welcome back, thought you’d emigrated.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 14

          Robert Wakeham November 27, 2014 4:15 pm Reply
          • Robert, I could have sworn she/he/it said they’d not be back and took the huff?

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 11

            Jamie Black November 28, 2014 12:08 pm
  • Not the return of the ‘Nazi’ comparisons for the umpteenth time.

    I rather hoped we had left that behind us after the referendum debate was over.

    During the referendum we had a YES campaigner claiming that Westminster was making people realise what it must have been like to be Jewish under the Nazis in the 1930s. We also had NO campaigners (as we have on here) making comparisons between the SNP and the Nazi party or Salmond and Hitler.

    Campaigners on both sides criticised the other for doing it but never criticised their own ‘side’ for doing it.

    There is no justifiable argument for drawing similarities between the two and it is an insult to the millions of people who suffered and died during that period for such remarks to be made so flippantly.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 12

    Integrity? November 27, 2014 2:15 pm Reply
    • To be fair, I think many people are drawing comparisons with the beginnings of the Nazi party and its gradual development.
      At least in the UK we have laws that help to prevent certain types of human behaviour that might otherwise be used to control popluations, as we are witnessing in other parts of the world. However, could another “political party” take control over us, dominating our society by bullying, harassment and violence?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 15

      Lowry November 27, 2014 3:48 pm Reply
      • In my opinion no they couldn’t. Society in the UK, and many other countries (though not all)has moved on more than enough to not tolerate a dictatorship that controls through fear and intimidation.

        A political party can be ruled through a very centralised domineering power base but I don’t believe the British public could be.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 8

        Integrity? November 27, 2014 6:06 pm Reply
        • The SNp are chipping away at so may aspects of life in Scotland, that it’s hard not to make asociations with organisations of the past. This ‘chipping away’ is being done by, in my opinion, abusing the majority they have at Holyrood – Corroboration and Named Persons legislation being some of the most worrying examples. Unlike the Tories in Westminster, the SNP will NEVER rebel against their own, and thus, if the SNP want something, they will force it through regardless of any other opposition.

          How many votes of no confidence were narrowly defeated ONLY because the SNP could use their numerical advantage? The political parties in Scotland have given their verdict on the likes of McAskill and the SNP did NOTHING about it.

          THey kept them on and used the reshuffle as an excuse to do something that should have been done long ago.

          The day large numbers of SNP rebel against their own party is the day I will believe the SNP would not have Scotland run like a dictatorship.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 13

          Jamie Black November 28, 2014 8:58 am Reply
          • The final resort would be to call for an extraordinary general election, this would require two thirds of all MSP’s to vote for it,
            We have Pretendy MSP’s who seem to just vote through anything without studying the contents or giving consideration to the consequences,
            Unfortunately we can only blame ourselves, we voted for them!

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

            richard November 28, 2014 10:42 pm
      • Lowry
        What are you talking about? Harassment and violence. As an Englishmen are you thinking of Local English town councils?
        We have laws in Scotland or are you so unaware of this?
        Your ranting on Scotland is so tedious
        In fairness are you worried over Farage, ukip and the other right wing looneys like Boris Johnston ?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 8

        No Cheese Here November 27, 2014 6:09 pm Reply
      • I very much hope that Integrity’s right, but there’s something about the fervour of ‘national socialism’ that has me looking over my shoulder at some of the monsters that wrapped themselves in that particular cloak.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 9

        Robert Wakeham November 28, 2014 10:32 pm Reply
  • As OTT as ever – at least until the first press release…

    As DC is wont to say “Calm down ….., calm down…”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

    Ian Sanderson November 27, 2014 3:38 pm Reply
  • I don’t know what happened at Campbeltown but as it happens I was at the Lochgilphead meeting of Common Weal, and and it didn’t look like some deluded and dangerous cult. About thirty mostly rather middle-aged and earnest do-gooders, fired up by nothing stronger than the Stag Hotel’s tea. No Kool-Aid was in evidence. Their delusion, if any, is that politics could be civil and evidence-led, something highly unlikely judging from most of the above, including the article itself.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 3

    Arthur Blue November 27, 2014 10:47 pm Reply
    • How many more ‘Social Experiments’? we’ve been through the Blair era, some of us remember ‘supertax’ there is nothing new in what they peddle.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 16

      richard November 27, 2014 11:26 pm Reply
  • Is it me or does the newly formed Women for Independence group look more like a version of the Scottish Women’s Rural ? Are they baking cakes and learning quilt making ?

    Why a women’s group at all?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 18

    Lowry November 28, 2014 12:33 am Reply
    • More likely preparing to clout the lugs of the local MCPs with the nearest rolling pin. You’ll have had your breakfast, then?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 14

      Robert Wakeham November 28, 2014 7:41 am Reply
    • What a patronising post Lowry. You are some piece of work.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 7

      Longshanks November 28, 2014 8:53 am Reply
      • Patronising? I see you cannot respond to my opinion.

        I ask again, albeit slightly differently, why is there a need for a seperate women’s group? What are they doing that men cannot or do not want to join in?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 18

        Lowry November 28, 2014 9:19 am Reply
        • Why do men always have to be involved?

          To put it another way, do you support women’s membership of the R & A Golf Club? If not you are a hypocrite.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

          Kassandra November 29, 2014 8:36 pm Reply
    • Because they’re women ?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

      Arthur Blue November 28, 2014 12:07 pm Reply
      • I thought the independence debate was political, not gender specific.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 14

        Lowry November 28, 2014 1:07 pm Reply
  • Lowry says:
    November 28, 2014 at 12:33 am
    Is it me or does the newly formed Women for Independence group look more like a version of the Scottish Women’s Rural ?
    Are they baking cakes and learning quilt making ?
    Why a women’s group at all?
    —————————————————————————————————
    Eh maybe they wanted plonkers like you kept well away and who would blame any group male or female.
    Do you know that women can do so many things Lowry that you cannot comprehend and I am sure they can even bake cakes and make tea. We even have a First Minister who is female. I honestly don’t know if she knits at night?
    Did you attend a boys public school when you were brought up in England and never met females?
    Do you watch Brigadoon in the cinema and thought I must visit? Are you still looking for it?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 7

    No Cheese Here November 28, 2014 11:53 am Reply
  • That democracy cult’s a blasted nuisance. Doomed, I tell you.

    Latest by-election. SNP 1159, Tories 574, Labour, better than expected, taking literally dozens and dozens.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/snp-candidate-claims-victory-aberdeenshire-4712889

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 4

    Chuck November 28, 2014 3:51 pm Reply
  • If I’d handed this article over to one of the tutors on my politics degree course, they would have winced through reading it before failing it and wanting a quiet word with me.

    Just as well you’re not an academic!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 5

    Susan D November 28, 2014 8:39 pm Reply
    • Don’t worry, newsie is only playing at being a journalist. If she was serious I would be worried (mostly about her mental health).

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

      Kassandra November 29, 2014 8:27 pm Reply
  • Robert Wakeham says:
    November 28, 2014 at 10:26 pm

    “And left-wingers, believe it or not.”

    Actually Bob. I don’t believe it. If you look at the literature you will find that this sort of fetishism is overwhelmingly, even exclusively, a right-wing trait.

    Of course, this is applicable to members of the Labour(!) Party too, as they are now nearly all very right wing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

    Kassandra November 29, 2014 8:30 pm Reply

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