Revelations galore at Cowal pro-union launch

Better together cowal 2

The Better Together pro-union campaign had its launch event for Cowal last night, 7th October, at Dunoon Grammar School – with a platform party sandwiched by the school’s output.

David Barton, at one end, is a present day senior pupil at the school and was one of the speakers. Rob Shorthouse at the other end, a former pupil, is Communications Director for the Better Together campaign.

The session was chaired by Council Leader Dick Walsh, with Alan Reid, Argyll and Bute’s MP; Jamie McGrigor, Highlands and Islands MSP and resident of Argyll; and Mary Galbraith the declared Labour candidate for the 2015 General Election. all joining David Barton on the speaking panel.

At one point Councillor Walsh forgot he was in the Chair and gave an impromptu address on the subject himself.

The brief for the speakers was to give their personal reason for their pro-union position. With the exception of David Barton, who had not been identified in time, the speeches of the panel members are published here below, along with similar but pro-independence contributions from Michael Russell, Argyll and Bute’s MSP and Campbell Cameron, Oban’s Town Centre Manager.

Better together cowal 5

Alan Reid’s address was less personal than it was political – but then he has been steeped more deeply in politics since his part became one of the coalition partners in power at Westminster, so he can be forgiven for being carried by the adrenaline of that ongoing experience.

mary Galbraith

Mary Galbraith proved someone whose rich family life, cultural background, experiences and practices ought to have marked her out pre-eminently as a nationalist – but she relishes and thrives in the texture of the ‘club’ that is the UK. Warm, alert, amused and quick thinking, she is going to be one to watch in the Westminster election campaign to come in 2015. Professionally she is an IT business professional, specialising in mergers and demergers, which, in his introduction of her, Councillor Walsh, wittily noted ‘might come in handy’.

Better together cowal 4

Jamie McGrigor perpetually overturns cliched expectations of Tories – because that’s not what he is. He was a naturally conversational and compelling speaker. Quick to pick up on Mary Galbraith’s fidelity to the brief of ‘being personal’ he departed from his planned speech [published below] off the cuff and refocused what he had to say. Because this was new material, we are including here an outline of what it was.

He spoke of his own family,Clan Gregor, devastatingly punished for their political loyalties by the retributive establishment of their day. Jamie McGrigor said simply that his family had ‘lost everything’, ‘even our name’ and had ended up ‘on a croft somewhere north of Tomintoul’. [For those unaware of the fate of Clan Gregor, Wikipedia has a useful summary.]

He then sketched in the military service of three generations of his family, with one becoming a celebrated doctor in London. Linking this into his planned address, he finished by saying that he had two daughters, both living and working in England but both firmly Scots in identity. The advice he has given them is to be as proud as anything of their Scottishness but never to forget what the United Kingdom has done for their family.

Moments of truth

The session began by reclaiming territory as jointly owned, with a film showcasing Scotland, breathtaking as usual – and Scots who feel powerfully both for Scotland and for Britain.

The first slamming insight of the night came from that film. A young woman said: ‘When I go down there in the future, I don’t want to feel I don’t belong there or I’m not welcome’. This immediately brought into being the sense of unwanted alienation in which nothing thrives.

Then Rob Shorthouse, in his own opening remarks – emphasising the need to vote and not simply to express a view – described nationalism as ‘an old fashioned position’. He was talking about the 16 year-olds who will vote for the first time in the independence referendum. He was comparing the tight and defensive boundaries of nationalism with the freebooting global community of the internet which young people inhabit with a will. This was the second wake-up call of the night – the disjunction between the world of the young and the political confinement of a fortified world long gone.

david barton

David Barton then threw into the mix an instantly powerful practical predicament. Saying that he as aiming to go to University and then into the British armed services, he said: ‘But what will  be possible for me if Scotland is independent? Will I get in to the UK services? What’s out there for me? If I want to move south to work, will I be able to do that?’

The elephants in the room

There was a wrecking party present, which revealed itself when it came to Question tie. A phalanx of three tanks had positioned themselves early – in pole position, bang in the middle of the front row.

In the centre was SNP councillor Gordon Blair, whose thin tones belied the hulking presence of the gang of three from which they came.

Other voices scattered around the rows quickly indicated that there was a dispersed presence, there with a single purpose – to derail discussion by trying to force it into territory irrelevant to the debate – the specific detail of today’s UK government projects. They had their moment but they were unpleasantly and unnecessarily aggressive.

At this point, Jamie McGrigor took them on.

‘Look here’, he said. ‘We had a debate in the Scottish Parliament today – about the Common Agricultural Policy – with Scottish farmers anxious about the detail of a deal. Your lot just kept talking about the referendum. That’s all it is these days. Referendum, Referendum, Referendum. And the things we need to do aren’t getting done. I’m sick of it. I’m sick of the lot of you.’

Being a gentleman, he later apologised for getting heated – but the point was a real one.

Later during questions, when a woman in the audience raised the issue of the sheer cost of the Bannockburn reenactment for 2014, an exasperated and utterly uncontrived McGrigor told a few more home truths.

‘Bannockburn’, he said. ‘They only want to celebrate Bannockburn because we won that one.What about the one’s when got beaten? I went to a commemoration of Flodden – where we got hammered. 10,000 Scots were killed, 5,000 English were killed. There wasn’t a single SNP representative there. Not one. No interest in paying tribute to Scots lives lost. It’s only about winning.’

At the end of the session, some of the SNP plants tried to sweep up the pro-union literature at the back of the room – to dump in a bin.

This was a pretty thuggish effort all round – and no advertisement for the kind of Scotland we can expect if we drift languidly into letting them have their ill-considered way.

The big revelation

Very early on in the Question and Answer session after the addresses, a woman in the front row announced herself as a nationalist – and then said she would be voting ‘No’.

She had come to this decision ‘because what’s on offer isn’t independence at all’. Bright, un-shrill, articulate -  hurting – she outlined a sense of betrayal at what is being proposed as ‘independence’ – each aspect of which she listed.

Her point was that she is not alone and that the Better Together campaign would do better to address people like herself, who would vote ‘No’.

The Better Together platform party immediately felt they owned here, failing, at first, to understand the issue.

This was clarified at the end of the session where a man sitting beside her also spoke. Describing himself also as a nationalist who would be voting ‘No’, he said: ‘But I’m not ‘Better Together’, I’m pro-independence’.

Now they got the point and were working to adjust to it. The first speaker than challenged each of the platform party to define ‘independence’. All failed – except David Barton who told her that the philosopher, Immanuel Kant, had defined it as ‘being autonomous, making one’s own decisions’. Delighted, the woman said that he had just revised her opinion of Scottish education.

What this element of last nights session underlined – sharply – is that in the middle of the two entrenched encampments there are homeless people on no man’s land.

The issue here is not that they are natural prey for predatory vote collectors on either side but that they have been left homeless by a a prospectus for independence which has not had the courage of its convictions – or has abandoned its convictions for the fatality of an ‘end justifies the means’ policy.

When Rob Shorthouse told the woman who spoke first that, even if she wasn’t pro-union, he was glad she’d be voting ‘No’ – she said simply: ‘I have no choice’.

There is real pain here, in people who have nothing to fight FOR, only something they have no choice but to defend against.

We ourselves are in territory not dissimilar to this, having initially supported independence and moved progressively away from it because of the lack of integrity of the independence prospectus on these grounds, on those of its utter incompetence in economic survivability and in its failure to understand the complex consequences of separation.

Where we differ from these two nationalists whose position impacted on us so strongly, is that is moving away from independence, we have come to understand better and to value more the textured complexity of being part of something bigger and more various than ourselves.

We may not like all of it but what we do not like casts into relief where our own circumstances here are better.

What we do like  – the genuinely bigger game with the pooling and sharing to grow and shelter, cannot be supplied by a small country.

We do have the best of both worlds right now – a clear identity a cultural distinctiveness, work to do – and a common good to which we can contribute generously and from which we receive in periods of need.

It’s about what we give as much as about what we get – and it’s about what, together, we are – different, rich, combative, supportive. jostling and joshing – a family.

Share and Enjoy:
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Facebook
  • Google Bookmarks
  • email
  • LinkedIn
  • Technorati
  • TwitThis
  • Ma.gnolia
  • NewsVine
  • StumbleUpon
  • SphereIt
  • Reddit
  • Slashdot
  • Print

63 Responses to Revelations galore at Cowal pro-union launch

  1. Is it true there were only 12 in the audience excluding what For Argyll describes as SNP plants with thuggish tendencies? Dangerous plants – like Day of the Triffids.
    “At the end of the session, some of the SNP plants tried to sweep up the pro-union literature at the back of the room – to dump in a bin. This was a pretty thuggish effort all round – and no advertisement for the kind of Scotland we can expect if we drift languidly into letting them have their ill-considered way.”

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 50

      • Thank you David for your confirmation that there were no “Thugs” in attendance
        At the Better Together Campaign meeting in Dunoon Grammar School on Monday evening. You were at the same meeting I was at.
        I did not contribute to the discussion until after some 45 minutes and my opening remarks were as follows:
        “I am delighted to be at a Better Together Campaign because I think it is absolutely essential that we get all the facts out there and that we make sure that 100% turn out for the actual referendum because its the biggest event in Scotland’s history.
        We’ve got to make sure the proper facts get out there. I am interested in the young gentleman’s comments here with regards to his vision of the future and of course if you look at aspects of what the Scottish Government does have control of , Education, you won’t be paying Tuition Fees in an independent Scotland as you are not paying at this point in time.
        Our Health Service is also operated on a different basis and I just want to put a question to Mr McGrigor with regard to the Bedroom Tax. For the 800 families within Argyll and Bute who are affected by this , do you still think we are Better Together because it is not what the people of Scotland want for our vulnerable in society, and that’s just one aspect of it. but I am delighted to have dialogue and debate and discussion……Abslutely essential. Thank You.”
        Can I also say I was not sitting in the front row, the gentleman on my left was not a “thug” and the gentleman on my right, to whom I was introduced at the end of the meeting, was not a “thug” either. Since your primary function is to communicate it would help if you lifted the phone, or emailed folk direct and you will get the story straight rather than the nonsence you appear to display on such a regular basis.
        Gordon Blair
        SNP Councillor Cowal

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 46 Thumb down 8

        • Certainly look’s like councillor Blair cant’ speak without notes as he needs to have his question prepared in advance and written down without even heard the speakers at the event. He obviously has reproduced his written question here. Maybe it was mike Russell who wrote them down for him or had his hand up his back.

          At least we get facts from better together which is more than can be said for the separation / Yes / independence brigade. Anything has got to be better that living under a dictatorial SNP government where those in Edinburgh centralise all power and leave locally elected representatives acting as puppets for an SNP government.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 18 Thumb down 38

          • LAGGANBUIE
            Top table used notes. No probs with that – they have to sing from the same hymn sheet–pity there were no answers on the bits of paper over the Royal Mail sell off , bedroom tax etc
            Cllr Blair did not use notes. Maybe you were not sitting in pole position to see better! lol

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 34 Thumb down 6

        • 800 families out of a total of how many Cllr Blair?
          You do not speak for me when you say “it’s not what the people of Scotland want for our vulnerable in society…”
          I know of too many vulnerable families who are desperate for larger accommodation and, on the opposite side of the coin, too many folk, who are not vulnerable, in accommodation too large for their needs. Let’s be very clear exactly what you mean and on whose behalf you claim to be talking.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 37

        • councillor Blair, how many of the 800 families that you refer to asked you to put that question to Jamie McGrigor? I am one of the 800 families and you certainly do not the authority to speak on my behalf. Time you started to think before you speak. I am more than capable of speaking for myself.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 39

        • You were sitting in the centre of the first occupied row. There were empty chairs in front of you, with one person sitting there who appeared to be either a photographer or an organiser.
          The description of your location as ‘pole position’ is accurate.
          And we did not describe you or anyone as a ‘thug’. You have yourself gratuitously conferred this description upon those on either side of you.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 35

          • How can you strategically sit anywhere? Surely if there is a seat you choose and plump your bottom down.

            Are you suggesting that others were not strategically seated?!!

            To be more strategically seated would Cllr Blair and others not sit in the front? Obviously the fact there were empty seats indicate that the meeting wasn’t as well attended as you had hoped.

            As for the term “snp thugs” (I put in quotes for accuracy) that was on your website by “No Cheese Here” who has subsequently changed their post more than once since placing the defamatory comment online. They have now removed it. Personally it might have been professional for FA to remove the term as a matter of decency.
            Anyway,
            For Argyll can confirm this is accurate so we can move on.

            thanks

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 37 Thumb down 5

    • Cheesy have you changed your post and dropped the term THUGS. Naughty Naughty without telling us too!
      Well done – tell us next time. In fairness my printer is pretty good and the offensive comments made by you in relation to a number of SNP members over months is however irrefutable.
      Cheers Cheesy

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 35 Thumb down 3

      • Double standards here water you use the same tool yourself see post regarding adding to post after comment. As far as I’m concerned you’ve joined the list of non pejorative little sensations experienced during flu jabs, pruning roses and working in the garden in general Why don’t you Foxtrot Oscar

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 34

      • So this is nothing really to do with FA. The alleged comment that caused so much offense was removed by the individual who allegedly posted it.

        Why, why, oh why are the Cowal Courier and their cronies getting their knickers in such a twist? Sensitive wall flowers?

        Time to grow up and stop demeaning the independence debate with this utter ‘tam kite’.

        On the other hand – keep it up. The pettiness of the Argyll Yes mob will be, and already is, of massive benefit to the Better Together campaign.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 31

        • It seems to me that they are simply trying to whip up a frenzy in order to detract from the real debate – one that they appear to be losing.

          Now what type of behaviour is that?

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 31

          • I wonder if it was to distract from the thumping the SNP got in Govan at the by-election.

            Of course, many people will not know about that because the BBC in a tremendous show of pro-SNP support have failed to cover it at all!

            Labour 45%
            SNP 30%

            However, the most scary thing is that that turnout was 20%. Yes, that’s Twenty percent.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 26

  2. SNP Thugs!
    As stated by NEWSIE it was the Tory that had to apologise for his behaviour and fairness to him he did so.
    No doubt there were SNP folk there — no doubt there were the Greens and other YES supporters. It was an Open Public meeting. Your choice of words and reporting could get you into trouble one day.
    Once again cheesy your ability to hit the bottom end of an argument is clearly your art.
    Is it not the case that a few weeks ago your were suggesting you we’re a SNP Supporter!.
    Devious is the word. Others would use another term………..
    Oxford dictionary Definition of a thug – violent person, especially a criminal:
    Defamation on the internet
    It is possible for an Internet Service Provider (ISP) to be liable for the content of sites which it hosts.
    This was first seen in the UK in a legal action brought by Mr Godfrey against Demon, the ISP. An unknown person, purporting to be Mr Godfrey, made a defamatory posting which appeared on Demon’s news server in the UK. The posting could be read by Demon’s customers. When Mr Godfrey asked Demon to remove the posting (having explained that it was a forgery), Demon did not do so. Mr Godfrey took Demon to court, claiming the ISP was responsible for defamation because it hosted the posting. As a result of Demon’s failure to act on Mr Godfrey’s request, he won his case against Demon.
    Therefore, any ISP should treat a notice of complaint seriously and investigate it immediately.

    I hope NEWSIE you find the above of use. At least you cannot say you did not know!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 53 Thumb down 10

      • Yes
        But I am not sure I wish to associate myself with someone like you.
        I do have standards
        Ps I note you have not withdrawn your defamatory comment. You can edit your post if it was done in the heat of the moment? Hint – change it to “Ungentlemanly conduct”

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 48 Thumb down 6

        • ‘Elephants in the room’..’phalanx of tanks’.. ‘gang of three’(in the second front row).
          The only reference associated with the word thug was the accusation that the SNP plants..not all of the five or maybe six..’tried to sweep up the pro-union literature at the back of the hall-to dump in a bin’…’pretty thuggish effort all round’….if true…more a petty effort all round by whoever!

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 31

          • In Newsroom’s absence: David Graham has this correctly. At no time in the article are any of the gentlemen named referred to as thugs. The use of the adjective ‘thuggish’ was not ascribed to any individual, but to unnamed SNP supporters’ behaviour.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 35

    • You might have hoped that, but you have come to the wrong place – all you will get from newsie is tory/unionist propaganda.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 47 Thumb down 16

      • Now, now: newsie is an equal opportunity unionist muckraker – they’ll push Labour or tory propaganda depending on what seems best at a given moment.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 47 Thumb down 9

    • Hello Jean
      The online Cowal Courier permits readers to form their own opinion of the nights proceedings.
      Recorded footage available from the panel contributors just as they had done for the ‘Yes’ launch at The Braes several months back.
      Just to touch on a couple of other points from Newsies version on events.
      The two pro-independence yet ‘No’ voters in last nights scattering that bothered to turn up (Any official numbers btw Newsie?) I believe were the very same two whom I know that livened up the question for the panel session at the ‘Yes’ launch. They video camera in hand filming Mike Russell’s every word both given generous time to deliver very well put points mainly pertaining to the SNP’s intention to automatically take an independent Scotland into the EU.
      These opinions are important, relevant and healthy additions to events like the ‘Yes’ launch, absolutely futile preaching to the converted. Not quite sure what they stood to gain at last night’s belated launch though.
      Your disrespectful language when referring to those who chose to (As they were perfectly entitled to do) question the panel reflects badly on and does you or this site no favours whatsoever Newsie
      You mention them, the “Wrecking party” commenting on “the specific detail of today’s UK government projects” was “irrelevant to the debate”.
      So policies taken in Westminster by a government the Scottish electorate played little part in electing directly adversely affecting the citizens of this country is “irrelevant to the debate”? Really?
      OK, then please tell me how they, other than voting ‘Yes’ can prevent what they are discontented with with the policies of today’s UK government.
      Maybe I can suggest one. Just wait until the larger populated predominantly right of centre English electorate decide they are fed up with the Tories and their apologists.
      One last point. Mr McGregor should hang his head in shame with his comments.
      Firstly, his intolerant language.
      Secondly his ugly rant “Your lot just kept talking about the referendum. That’s all it is these days. Referendum, Referendum, Referendum. And the things we need to do aren’t getting done. I’m sick of it”. That sick of it he chose to be on a platform debating it! bizarre and “gentlemanly” indeed.
      Lastly and most telling this bile ” ‘Bannockburn’, he said. “They only want to celebrate Bannockburn because we won that one. What about the one’s when got beaten? I went to a commemoration of Flodden – where we got hammered. 10,000 Scots were killed, 5,000 English were killed. There wasn’t a single SNP representative there. Not one. No interest in paying tribute to Scots lives lost. It’s only about winning.”
      So he’s fine about celebrating British victories yet suggests we pick and choose which battles we celebrate questioning why we don’t celebrate historic Scottish military defeats!
      Where the hell do they get individuals such as this from exactly? These responses are imbecilic certainly not the input expected from an MSP.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 51 Thumb down 12

        • Maybe his ancestors were on the other side!

          If he wishes to talk about the Union post 1700′s how about the role of the Red Coats, the German Lairdie, persecution of religions, Highland Clearances, loss of our young men in the colonialist power wars such as the Boer war , World War 1

          The people and this country are expendable.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 35 Thumb down 9

          • Agreed Plug It – it seems to me that a fair proportion of Scots don’t fully understand their history. The Clearances being but one topic.
            Like the SNP, they just love to blame someone else rather than look at themselves.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 34

          • Hello Lowry
            Might it be the case that “A fair proportion of Scots” ignorant of their history are so because British history is the priority being taught in schools?
            Might be absolutely nothing in it, just a thought.
            It’s not really that long since I was at school and I remember Scottish history being strangely missing from our history lessons, our education system deliberately set up to dilute all things Scottish and replace with British.
            My charismatic history teacher obsessed with the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, the World wars and British involvement drummed into me alright.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 31 Thumb down 8

          • JnrTick

            Was your history teacher a Scot? Who sets the history curriculum in Scottish schools? The headteacher, the school, the examination board, the local authority, the Education Department, Holyrood or Westminster?

            Let me guess the fault for the lack of teaching of Scottish history in Scottish schools is the fault of……….oh yes, the English at Westminster!!!! Why am I not surprised!

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 34

          • JJ, whosever fault it is and or was, I believe my explanation and suggestion that Scottish history’s omission from Scottish education given to Lowry was accurate sadly.

            Why your unwarranted confrontation?

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 24 Thumb down 4

          • Oh, forgot to mention
            “oh yes, the English at Westminster!!!!”
            Look, lets keep “The English” out of it. They only ever enter this debate via BT as a deliberate tactic to discredit and smear the real life reasons many of us want a Better Scotland.
            I am of English descent, albeit way back not that I should have to explain myself, it’s NOT an England Scotland thing and anyone with half a brain knows this fine and well.
            If pro independence, SNP supporters look to apportion blame then where more logical to look than root cause, Westmister, not a nationality!
            Westminster and the governments who operate there with much much more influential clout in relation to how we live of course will be public enemy No1.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 31 Thumb down 5

      • “These responses are imbecilic”. Well, the “no” side generally seem to be quite keen on imbeciles – they appear to make up a majority there. Of course, according to “newsie” you have to be daft to vote “Yes”, but are you going to take the word of someone from the imbecile side? Or is being “daft” worse than being an imbecile – must get my dictionary.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 33 Thumb down 11

      • Jamie McGrigor was not celebrating any victory – he was paying tribute to the lives of Scots lost at Flodden. And that was the explicit point he made.
        Not one SNP representative had come to pay that same due tribute.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 33

      • MrTick,- Cowal Courier footage was/had to be edited from the Better Together information night.
        Was this also the case from the nats launch?
        I was not at the nats launch so will not comment on it.
        Perhaps you should think of saying less about an event you did not attend because as I say, footage was edited.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 21

    • Ouch! Nazification of the Better Together Campaign – dear oh dear.
      Definition of Nazification = social process of adopting Nazism.
      Meaning of Nazi = German, short for Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiter-Partei, National Socialist German Workers’ Party.

      Be advised Graeme Mccormick there is already talk on this forum of litigation for alleged ‘name calling’ after the behaviour of someone believed to be associated with the SNP in Cowal was referred to as thuggish – to compare pro-unionists and the Better Together campaign with Nazism (and therefore fascism)is an insult to the whole of the UK, the lives of those lost in WWII protecting the freedom of the people of the UK (including Scots) and the millions who died in the Nazi Concentration Camps are bang out of order. Your comments do not add value or credibility to any grown-up debate about independence for Scotland.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 18 Thumb down 32

      • “Nationalism is an evil. It causes wards, its roots lie in xenophobia and racism, it is a recent phenomena – an invention of the last few centuries –which has been of immense service to demagogues and tyrants but to no one else. Disguised as patriotism and love of one’s country, it trades on the unreason of mass psychology to make a variety of horrors seem acceptable…

        Nationalists take certain unexeptionable desires and muddle them with unacceptable ones. We individually wish to run our own affairs, that is unexceptionable. Most of us value the culture which shaped our developments and gave us our sense of personal and group identity, that too is unexceptionable. But the nationalist persuades us that the existence of other groups and cultures somehow puts these things at risk, and that the only way to protect them is to see ourselves as members of a distinct collective… It is not enough that the others are other, we have to see them as a threat…”
        A.C. Grayling
        The Meaning of Things

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 35

        • I take it British Nationalism as portrayed by NEWSIE, CHEESY, Daily Mail etc etc is good?

          It is the BN BT brigade that wants no Scots Parlaiment, No to immigration, out of Europe, no questions asked wrapped in the red white and blue. That’s the sort of nationalism that brought the empire (sorry civilisation) to the world.
          An independent Scotland is inclusive and just wants to be on the same footing as all other nations of the world small or large and without the Bedroom tax, nuclear weapons, and the greedy bankers of London and corrupt Westminster politics.
          As for AC Grayling Grayling (from wiki) he was born and raised in Luanshya, Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia), within the British expatriate community, while his father worked for the Standard Chartered Bank.[4] He attended several boarding schools, including Falcon College in Zimbabwe, from which he ran away after being caned

          Cannot think he can really speak on the Scots context Nationalism and of the common weal.

          Cheers

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 35 Thumb down 9

        • “Stop the World, we want to get on”
          Winnie Ewing 1967
          My sentiments too. Is that too nasty evil Nationalism Lowry?
          I’m watching lots of footage of debates on the referendum and rarely contributors arguments come from a nationalistic slant. More often, social justice, equality, mismanagement of taxation …
          The claim that people who want change in their country and wish that change to be decided and implemented within it are in any way shape or form “evil” belittles the good intent and intellect of the individuals you share this country with.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 26 Thumb down 5

          • It’s a fair point Jnr.

            The association of ‘nationalism’ with anything evil or fundamentally negative is a bit dated and better reflects George Orwell’s view of nationalism post the World Wars. Thankfully the world has moved on a bit since then!

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 25 Thumb down 3

          • Yes the world has indeed moved on a bit, Scotland too is evolving.
            Strange too integrity that we in Scotland are told by those championing a ‘NO’ vote that the notion of independence is “a bit dated”. In fact I believe Newsie reported this as one of the comments by one of the contributors at the Better Together launch in Cowal, I found the comment genuinely bewildering and misinformed.
            If independence is no longer de rigueur what is?
            Unionism?
            And if unionism is I look forward to the electorate’s decision on David Cameron’s in/out EU referendum in 2017.
            We’ll maybe see how attractive unionism is then.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 24 Thumb down 7

  3. I thought these meetings would be pretty boring but I will certainly go to any that are in Oban to listen to our local SNP councillors talk about the benefits of leaving the union. Sorry folks my mistake they only have one left out of the four they started with last year and she won’t last much longer. So what a great example the SNP “Bitter Apart”
    are for Argyll. Obviously Russell was pretty poor at getting his Independence message across to them because they all thought they had to go there own way.
    Lets cut them a bit of slack folks as really they need our sympathy. The fearties have no backbone they are that proud to be SNP but they continue to hide what a gutless mob.
    Cheers Neil.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 36

  4. So, is FA going to a) apologise for, or b) retract the accusation of “thuggish” behaviour by SNP/Yes supporters who gathered up the spare leaflets, given that it has been shown that this was in fact done a) by a local businessman to display in his coffee shop and b) with the full consent of the organiser? (For reference see the Courier’s article on the subject)

    Unfounded accusations, casting aspersions on someone’s motives, assuming the worst, and using it to distract from the content of their arguments? Looks pretty “thuggish” behaviour to me.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 29 Thumb down 3

  5. Newsie
    These pictures are just lovely breaking up the report of the night’s events but they don’t tell the full picture do they? Any photos of the crowd please? You did take some didn’t you?
    They say every picture tells a story so I was wondering how interested or disinterested the people of Cowal were in this past it’s sell by date of a union were.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 25 Thumb down 6

  6. “At the end of the session, some of the SNP plants tried to sweep up the pro-union literature at the back of the room – to dump in a bin”
    Any events or local functions in town halls function rooms that I have attended those organising the event are usually almost always glad if you offer to stay around at the death and help clean up.
    People just playing their part in ‘The Big Society’. The school would have had to have cleaned them up.
    I dunno, why do folks bother offering their services if this is the kind of gratitude shown.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 28 Thumb down 9

  7. Gus
    Cheesy was not there either I understand but it did not stop many of the Better Together campaign to hide behind his vitriol. Of course the comments about “snp thugs” had been removed and the passage changed. In fairness to David he did state that there were ” No thugs” at the meeting. I am sure you would agree. The so called plants were folk who attended the meeting to hear and to question, the person taking the pamphlets has received no apology after the initial allegations made about him.

    NoCheeseHere says:
    October 8, 2013 at 1:49 pm
    Is it true there were only 12 in the audience excluding what For Argyll describes as SNP plants with thuggish tendencies? Dangerous plants – like Day of the Triffids.
    “At the end of the session, some of the SNP plants tried to sweep up the pro-union literature at the back of the room – to dump in a bin. This was a pretty thuggish effort all round – and no advertisement for the kind of Scotland we can expect if we drift languidly into letting them have their ill-considered way.”

    Hot debate. What do you think? 12 31

    Reply

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 20 Thumb down 3

  8. H20,- Can you tell me who from the Better Together campaign was hiding behind what you have chosen to describe as the vitriol of ‘Cheesy’?
    Let us forget the nonsense of ‘snp thugs’ at the information evening, as you have said David explained there were none at the information evening.
    Were you there?
    If not why are you so interested?
    Who do you think should apologise to the person taking the pamphlets? He had sought and was given permission to take them!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 21

  9. Who should apologise?!
    The people who made the allegations of course. Because For Argyll has given them free reign to allege behaviours against YES supporters that turn out to be untrue.
    Maybe For Argyll and it’s proprieter could make a generic “sorry” as they have hosted the allegations which were false.
    Do you think no apology is due?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 21 Thumb down 7

    • I asked you who should apologise? You have not answered the question you said ‘FA has given them free reign’, who are they?

      As has been posted already the first person to use the word ‘thug’ was a Yes campaigner, newsroom used the word ‘thuggish’.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 19

  10. GM
    From a post above– still stands true
    AP says:
    October 11, 2013 at 3:35 pm
    So, is FA going to a) apologise for, or b) retract the accusation of “thuggish” behaviour by SNP/Yes supporters who gathered up the spare leaflets, given that it has been shown that this was in fact done a) by a local businessman to display in his coffee shop and b) with the full consent of the organiser? (For reference see the Courier’s article on the subject)

    Unfounded accusations, casting aspersions on someone’s motives, assuming the worst, and using it to distract from the content of their arguments? Looks pretty “thuggish” behaviour to me.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 13 3

    Reply

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 23 Thumb down 3

    • Were you at the Better Together information evening?

      On another website you described the evening as an ‘abysmal launch’, based on what evidence?

      Who is ‘cheesy’? and quite frankly who cares!

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 1 Thumb down 20

      • It would appear the Yes people mentality only stretches to the thumbs down/dislike rather than answering a question.

        Not much different from the so called leadership – Salmond and Sturgeon.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 17

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>


All the latest comments (including yours) straight to your mailbox, everyday! Click here to subscribe.