Comment posted Water Resources (Scotland) Bill introduced – issues arising by John Sinclair.
There are two tunnels feeding four generators and one tail race. So in theory two can generate and two can pump. Interesting to know the hydraulics of water flow in the tail race if they do pump and generate at same time. As I said its what I was told, yes I do find it hard to beleave, but the “unstable” wind generation has brought in a new vairable in to the market. Yet again someone in the know could correct me, years ago I read the maximum of wind power on a grid could only be 16% and then the excess would be exported to a more stable grid. Are we not being conected up to Norway. I may be getting my facts wrong, but there should be an open and transparent debate on energy production.
John Sinclair also commented
- “madness” well put.
- Reading my comment does not make sense, but the whole nature of the market has evolved. When I was told they were pumping and generating at the same time I did not beleave either. Two different people have told me about the expansion, I know that still does not make it true. Hopefully someone in the known will correct me if I am wrong.
- My understanding is there is a limit on how much wind power can be connected live to the grid, go above and the grid becomes unstable. Hydro powered by a dam is very stable and the limiting factor is the volume of water. Correct me if I am wrong but Cruachan has started pumping and generating at the same time and a new cavern is in the planning stage along with building a bigger dam. All hydro stations are being reassessed for environmental damage, in America some have been dismantled http://vimeo.com/31305629. There are many good solutions out there, some will not make corporation the profit and will undermined their monopoly.
- Very interesting, trying to get my head round it, Tom Johnstone (After leaving Parliament he was Chairman of the Scottish National Forestry Commission (1945-48), Chairman of North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board (1946-59), Chancellor of Aberdeen University (1951-65) and governor of the British Broadcasting Board (1955-56).) led the way at one point for Hydro Power, I might be wrong, no public money was spent, the profit paid of the debt very quickly, then sold of cheaply by Thatcher to give us all cheap energy.
Recent comments by John Sinclair
- Russell to make parliamentary statement on rural schools today
In my opinion the council is ours, too many senior officials and councillors forget that and treat it as their own private company. I have no problems with people who work hard to build up their own businesses, they have my respect. The only way forward is to open up our council to make it open and transparent, in the age of computers the cost of open accounting is small, why is so much hidden from the public. Whats to hid and fear. - Russell to make parliamentary statement on rural schools today
Mr Sneddon attended the Oban High School Parent Council meeting, attended late, did not appologise then walked out before the subject of underfunding of High School took place. Oban getting new High School, £30 million cost, statics, lies and dam lies. Maths, under funding per child £2000 per year compared with a Stirling postcode. Highly paid senior officials and politicians are playing games with our children’s futures. The ground work is being set to get rural communities to fight against urban communities. Not a chance. - Russell to make parliamentary statement on rural schools today
“Our viable primary schools need to be properly funded. Our high school requires proper staffing” proper management does not need extra funding, should we not start there and then move onto the funding issue. - IGGY may help Scotland’s brightest pupils overcome decline in educational standards
Try looking at the education in Finland
http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=32720 - SNP Argyll meltdown: the band plays on
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.Douglas Bader (1910-1984)
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Very interesting, trying to get my head round it, Tom Johnstone (After leaving Parliament he was Chairman of the Scottish National Forestry Commission (1945-48), Chairman of North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board (1946-59), Chancellor of Aberdeen University (1951-65) and governor of the British Broadcasting Board (1955-56).) led the way at one point for Hydro Power, I might be wrong, no public money was spent, the profit paid of the debt very quickly, then sold of cheaply by Thatcher to give us all cheap energy.
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‘since all modern stations use the pumped return system’ – if this is a suggestion that pumped storage is the order of the day, I’d be surprised because a good few recent hydro power projects seem to have been ‘run of the river’ which, by definition, can’t be pumped storage.
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My understanding is there is a limit on how much wind power can be connected live to the grid, go above and the grid becomes unstable. Hydro powered by a dam is very stable and the limiting factor is the volume of water. Correct me if I am wrong but Cruachan has started pumping and generating at the same time and a new cavern is in the planning stage along with building a bigger dam. All hydro stations are being reassessed for environmental damage, in America some have been dismantled http://vimeo.com/31305629. There are many good solutions out there, some will not make corporation the profit and will undermined their monopoly.
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Are you sure about this, John? – pumping & generating at the same time doesn’t seem to make any sense, and building a bigger dam seems highly improbable, as 10% of the reservoir replenishment comes from feeder canals tapping streams around the mountain – and they’d be too low if the dam was higher, whereas there doesn’t appear to be room to enlarge the reservoir by building a new dam significantly ‘downstream’ from the existing one.
It’s designed to sell power to the grid at times of peak demand, and replenish the reservoir by using cheap off-peak power to drive the turbines as pumps. Apparently it also provides an almost instant (2 minutes from standing, 30 seconds if spinning) emergency power supply to the grid to ‘kick start’ any other power stations in the event of a major shut-down preventing them from drawing the electricity from the grid that they would need to power-up again.
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Reading my comment does not make sense, but the whole nature of the market has evolved. When I was told they were pumping and generating at the same time I did not beleave either. Two different people have told me about the expansion, I know that still does not make it true. Hopefully someone in the known will correct me if I am wrong.
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You can pump and generate at the same time. From memory, there are four turbines in the turbine hall under Cruachan. You could have two pumping while two are generating though I’m not sure why that would be desirable.
As to the amount of wind that can be connected to the grid, I was under the misapprehension that there is a finite limit to how much wind can be connected but the experience from Spain suggests that, though there may be an upper limit, it is much higher than was previously thought and the answer is to have either lots of pumped storage hydro or to have excellent interconnectors so you can draw power from adjacent regions when wind generation in your own region is depressed.
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Mind you – that depends on their being separate access tunnels to the turbines. If all turbines are fed by the same tunnel then you couldn’t pump and generate at the same time.
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There are two tunnels feeding four generators and one tail race. So in theory two can generate and two can pump. Interesting to know the hydraulics of water flow in the tail race if they do pump and generate at same time. As I said its what I was told, yes I do find it hard to beleave, but the “unstable” wind generation has brought in a new vairable in to the market. Yet again someone in the know could correct me, years ago I read the maximum of wind power on a grid could only be 16% and then the excess would be exported to a more stable grid. Are we not being conected up to Norway. I may be getting my facts wrong, but there should be an open and transparent debate on energy production.
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Stealth entry by the back door eh…you wee rascals.
As I said months ago the Scottish Government mean to flood more glens to provide pumped storage facilities for energy storage, energy generated by large commercial windfarms.
Given the huge environmental footprint of resevoirs of any type…this needs to be taken into consideration when folk quote wind as having a small environmental footprint…it does not…whether we are talking conventional back up or pumped storage…large scale commercial wind causes large scale damage to our uninhabited more natural locations.
I also hasten to add that the recently anounced connection to Norway will also use their spare storage facility or planned storage facility….much as Denmark is doing now…generate/export/store/release/buy back…madness.
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“madness” well put.
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EURELECTRIC position “Trade-offs between environmental legislation and the low-carbon agenda”The 2009 Renewables Energy Directive stipulates the need to support “the use of energy storage systems for integrated intermittent production of energy from renewable sources.” (wind) Yet regulatory obstacles such as disproportionate implementation and too broad interpretation of environmental legislation are impeding the further development of hydropower in Europe”
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Again Euroelectrics position:”Policymakers must address the conflicting objectives of the low-carbon agenda and the environmental agenda”
So there we have it, the big businesses are trying their damdest to de-regulate or change current environmental legislation to allow damage to the environment…talk about madness…Not content with messing up the planet already…they intend to mess it up some more…please do not give me the cop out of “this is to protect the planet” what is the point in europe destroying more wilderness areas to counteract US/China/India emmissions when they are the current culprits. Bild a wind farm/sponsor a flooded glen !!!
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