Comment posted The Dunoon passenger ferry experience by Robert Wakeham.
I hadn’t realised that local train services had already been removed from SPT’s control, and today the Herald quotes the chairman of SPT as saying that “The Scottish government needs to be clear and, if a review (of the future of SPT) is to take place, explain how integrated regional transport services will be delivered in future”
The government could start by ‘integrating’ Gourock.
Robert Wakeham also commented
- ‘…Clydeport do not publish the byelaws’ I don’t understand, how can byelaws have any authority of they’re not published – even if they’re cloaked in such convoluted legal gobbledygook (my guess) that advisory notes are needed to render them intelligible to the common man?
- Very well said – but it would appear that no-one in Holyrood, except for Jackie Bailllie, is listening – and that SPT are either brain dead or can’t be bothered with anything that they perceive only affects a relatively small proportion of the electorate.
There was a time not so long ago when I would have added that they probably weren’t interested in anything that offered little scope for extracting personal perks. So much for the Strathclyde Regional Transport Strategy. - If Gourock is to provide a passenger ferry / train interchange fit for purpose there’s quite a lot of heads need banging against the nearest wall. I thought that the Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive was charged with identifying, and actioning, the answers to exactly this sort of problem – isn’t it within their remit? If the Government have ‘pulled the rug’ out from under them, for whatever reason, then the government do seem to have created a void that they don’t know how to fill.
- Duncan: Are you talking about vehicles only? surely people deserve a passenger service from downtown Dunoon to the train at Gourock, or do you think a shuttle bus link (ideally from the main street as well as the wind and rainswept bus stances near the pier)) to Hunter’s Quay would be acceptable?
- Surprising to see Anthony Davey’s comment that the disabled driver’s discount he used to get from Calmac isn’t available on WF. Surely some mistake?
Recent comments by Robert Wakeham
- Walsh to lead all but Lib Dems, Conservatives and George Freeman
I’m just wondering if this is a wild goose chase – barking up the wrong tree, so to speak – and it might be a creature of a different political colour altogether? - Walsh to lead all but Lib Dems, Conservatives and George Freeman
Talking of Conservatives, and bearing in mind the ornithological wonders of this part of the world, has anyone yet spotted a swivel-eyed loon? – or is it an imaginary creature? - First Minister’s choice not to condemn mob behaviour proves Farage point
Farage was in Edinburgh to raise the profile of UKIP – don’t underestimate wee Nige. - Walsh to lead all but Lib Dems, Conservatives and George Freeman
This reads uncannily like a description of Tommy Sheridan’s erstwhile political buddies – although they, thank goodness, have never managed to grab the reins of power. - Finally, SNP Government delivers a passenger ferry capable of seeing off Western Ferries
There’s a quite accurate measure of economic activity if you look around at where tower cranes signify construction in progress, and there are more in London than in the whole of the rest of Britain. Last autumn at a do in London I suggested to a senior Canary Wharf construction executive that London was increasingly behaving like a separate ‘city state’, with an economy that operated independently to that of the rest of Britain.
He was dismissive of this idea, but I’m not so sure.
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Thanks for a full and comprehensive review: it’ll take some digesting, but a couple of obvious initial comments are: lack of adequate signage at Dunoon is utterly inexcusable, and what on earth will the ‘pedestrian experience’ at Dunoon (let alone Gourock) be like on a day of driving rain?
The image of a passenger ferry having to dock at vehicle ramps is bizarre indeed, and – in due course – probably the stuff of worldwide internet entertainment.
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Pingback: Argyll News: Argyll Ferries ramps up for one-day passenger shuttle for peak 2011 Cowal Gathering | For Argyll
I recently use the Western ferry with a car The first thing waqs lack of signage or staff at Hunter keythen the iceing on the cake,Cost,as a disabled driver and user of the Cal-Mac route to find No discount before I realised this I was onboard and had slipped from Hunters Key so it was pay up or swim! Next time it will be a place in Argyll to avoid.We will now chose a day out on the Clyde outwith Dunoon.
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thank you for the comprehensive information about this trip, I took one of the very last trips as a foot passenger on the Calmac – it was in fact my first and only trip in the 5yrs of living here.
I have to admit I saw the ferry coming in the other day and whilst not a knowledgeable sailor it did seem to be rather alarming approach.
It would be interesting to see what the journey would be like on a day like today.
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Thanks for winning me a pint (actually two) in my bet.
Before I read a word, when I saw the title of the article I said to my mate that this would end with a negative result for the ferry, and something biased somewhere.
I won the second pint because of that contrived picture of choppy waves, and the way it was not revealed as a hoax until AFTER the end of the article – so that anyone who didn’t read past the signature would miss it.
In all seriousness, the value of this article will come in a year’s time, when you repeat the same trip under the same conditions, to see if a year’s operating experience of a new service has resulted in any change – THEN you can criticise.
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Pingback: The Dunoon passenger ferry experience – For Argyll
Surprising to see Anthony Davey’s comment that the disabled driver’s discount he used to get from Calmac isn’t available on WF. Surely some mistake?
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What about the fares? Compare an over 60s fare Gourock-Dunoon on Western Ferries and McGills(£0), with an over 60s on the Argyll Flyer(£?).
Then do the same for under 60s.
A lot of day passengers will be pensioners and unless they get free with Argyll ferries I can’t see many travelling with them.
A significant reason why the Argyll Flyer will fail?
Come on Newsroom lets see the real difference.
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A very interesting article. I am not alone in my suspicion that this service is actually designed to fail.
By making it as difficult, expensive and uncomfortable as possible to use.
At some point in the near future it will no doubt be announced that “passenger numbers are so low that this service is not viable”.
How much money (our money) has been wasted already on this farce?
It could probably have paid for a free town centre to town centre helicopter service with still enough left over to refurbish the beautiful old pier and buildings.
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These ferries (and yes I have travelled on them) are quite unsuitable for this crossing. It was bad enough on the days I travelled, narrow gangway, coming in broadside on to a car ramp, no access facilities for disabled (yes, yes you snp muppets I know ferries are for the moment exempt from the DDA – but what year is this? Why are we still treating disabled as second class citizens?) and absolutely NO weather protection for passengers. Herded like cattle at Gourock and four hundred yards further away which means – you finally get to the train exhausted, wet and sweating and just in time to to see the doors close and you left on the platform.
Thanks the snp Government
Thanks Mike ‘use it or lose it’ and ‘time to move on’ Mike Russell.
That reminds me the last time I saw Mikey Boy on a car ferry was when he was on Western ferries.
Mikey boy on Western? Cal-Mac car ferry no more? is there a connection???
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Good feature.
Hope it can be repeated on a bad weather day!
Clearly a put you off new and better service.
As the posters displayed on the Pier said with the SNP logo Be part of better- But get worse.
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Argyll ferries,
Cant even run on time early on Sat morning, not enough sense to open up throttle and speed up to make up time, this so called service is designed to fail. stop this fiasco now before someone gets injured or killed. Bring in WF to run a Dunoon-McInroys Point fast service along with Hunters Quay-Gourock to link with railway timetable, Do it now and get some credence back before its too late and the bridges get support. Stop wasting time analysing why the situation prevailed- that’s simple political intervention from all parties.
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There is no analysing why the system prevailed and it is not political intervention from all patries. We are where we are now because the SNP failed to provide the two ferries promised, no other reason. Of course the so called service we have been left with is designed to fail, but you will not hear a peep from any of the SNP councillors or from Mike Russell condemning this fiasco as they know only too well their party is responsible.We need ferries running from Dunoon – Gourock railhead. Hunters Quay or McInroys Point are not acceptable. Whatever the the SNP’S agenda is it’s time for them to come clean as to why we have been left with such a futile service. The vast majority of people who use the service regularly are convinced it will constantly be cancelled in slightly choppy seas.
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whats wrong with Hunters quay to Gourock railhead and Dunoon to McInroys point as ferry routes? these are the shortest crossings available to us.I also wonder if the taxpayers still think they should supply 2 new boats for the Govt to provide a service like the present?
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Gus, whoever you are “We are where we are now because the SNP failed to provide the two ferries promised, no other reason”.
Too true.
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So really the best solution may be to have Western Ferries sail from Gourock Station to Dunoon Linkspan. This would provide a more reliable service in poor weather, and take passengers to the railhead. Main problems with this are that Western would probably not want to pay pier dues at both piers, and they haven’t at present got high passenger capacity ships. This route is also twice as long as their own route, so would mean higher fuel usage.
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Again the obvious unanswered question has to be- is there problems with any ferry sailing from Hunters Quay to Gourock pier with passengers and cars and any ferry sailing from McInroys point to Dunoon linkspan carrying the same. Or is there a more sinister problem leading to cowal only being served by road and one crossing route?
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To Duncan – Western Ferries own the Hunter’s Quay and Mcinroy’s Point terminals, so they don’t have to pay any charges to use them. If they wanted to use either Gourock or Dunoon terminals they would have to pay additional charges for using them. I seem to recall £1.000.000 per year being mentioned to use Dunoon, but I may be wrong. Argyll and Bute Council did say that they were going to ask Western to use Dunoon for some of their sailings, but I don’t recall hearing any more on this. Why would they want to use either anyway? It would get confusing for drivers, and Dunoon linkspan isn’t that sheltered compared to Hunter’s Quay.
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Well Dunoon Lad,
Some good points there but you also highlighted the precariously fragile location of Dunoon linkspan and considering the history of subsidies paid over the last thirty years or so, cost considerations too, but I’m only too sure any ferry company offered the chance of plying another route would jump at the chance. I also take it that Gourock pier would be the choice over McInroys point for shelter on the other side so Hunters Quay to Gourock pier would be the optimum solution. That undersood, how do we get the players involved to make it happen or do we still need to have some sort of vehicle and passenger carrying ferry service into the Dunoon linkspan? In an ideal world it would seem to me that HQ to GP and DP to McIP would be the perfect crossings run by two different private ferry companies or run solely by publicly owned transport group.
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Duncan: Are you talking about vehicles only? surely people deserve a passenger service from downtown Dunoon to the train at Gourock, or do you think a shuttle bus link (ideally from the main street as well as the wind and rainswept bus stances near the pier)) to Hunter’s Quay would be acceptable?
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I was quite impressed by the Argyll Flyer , it’s speed and feeling fast , when you stand at the stern of course. I did detect a side rolling motion when arrivinf at Dunoon Linkspan , this could because of her own fast approach. The crew did seem to be thrown into the deep end (excuse the pun!) and were learning the ship on the job. The long walk between the railhead at Gourock Station and the boat gangway seems to be quite long for the disabled and the elderly , I now the walk wasn’t all that far away from the present boarding station to when the Car Ferry was but it does seem longer to walk. How many people will be travelling on a ferry at 1am? Bring back the Car Ferry , people like big ships and feel comfortable in them. Dunoon people must get together to get the car ferry back in six years time.
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If Gourock is to provide a passenger ferry / train interchange fit for purpose there’s quite a lot of heads need banging against the nearest wall. I thought that the Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive was charged with identifying, and actioning, the answers to exactly this sort of problem – isn’t it within their remit? If the Government have ‘pulled the rug’ out from under them, for whatever reason, then the government do seem to have created a void that they don’t know how to fill.
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I hadn’t realised that local train services had already been removed from SPT’s control, and today the Herald quotes the chairman of SPT as saying that “The Scottish government needs to be clear and, if a review (of the future of SPT) is to take place, explain how integrated regional transport services will be delivered in future”
The government could start by ‘integrating’ Gourock.
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Kris:)
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Sorry to dig this up again, but the topic seems as relevant as ever;
1. There is no speed limit on the Clyde west of the dredged channel at Great Harbour. There is only a Notice To Mariners which states:
Mariners are advised that it is an offence to proceed at excessive speed where damage, or risk of damage maybe caused by wash or displacement.
Caution should be exercised when passing harbours, piers, moorings, beaches, recreational activities and any other areas involving property or persons.
Particular vigilance should be exercised when passing vessels alongside piers, harbour walls or moorings.
2. We have no ferry strategy; kicking the the tendering process into the long grass is not a strategy. At the time Argyll Ferries started no attempt was made to examine the possibilities offered by integrating the Dunoon-Gourock service with the Gourock-Kilcreggan-Helensburgh service; the blind assumption that it is satisfactory to merely continue to do today what you did yesterday is not my idea of meeting 3 of the 4 key outcomes of the Regional Transport Strategy for Strathclyde:
-Improved connectivity
-Access for all
-Attractive, seamless, reliable travel
I left out the 4th key outcome(reduced emissions) as I think it’s a sick joke.
3. The gourock terminal continues to be a ugly, badly laid-out joke; why was a new ferry landing not included in the works being carried out to the station? Constructing a new landing is required for both ferry services and I see no reason why it should not be built adjacent to the rail head opposite the ticket office. To do otherwise is to ignore the benefits of intermodal connectivity.
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Very well said – but it would appear that no-one in Holyrood, except for Jackie Bailllie, is listening – and that SPT are either brain dead or can’t be bothered with anything that they perceive only affects a relatively small proportion of the electorate.
There was a time not so long ago when I would have added that they probably weren’t interested in anything that offered little scope for extracting personal perks. So much for the Strathclyde Regional Transport Strategy.
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Agree entirely. Linking through Gourock the routes to Dunoon, Kilcreggan – AND Helensburgh – would have had strategic imagination and constructive potential. The way we all map the world we live in in these areas would have changed for the better – and would have opened up opportunities for visitors to all the elements of it. And that involves the marketing SPT never did in relation to Helensburgh and the Seabus.
As you say, doing what has always been done is not the way to development.
And we do not have a ferry strategy. Nor do we have anything worth describing as an economic development strategy. We need both and we need them to be part of the same picture.
On the Gourock terminal – you are also absolutely right. It is incoherent, ugly, difficult to get around and inefficient in the transits and services it offers travellers. It is an unchanged product of the ‘take it or leave it’ philosophy where it doesn’t matter if things are right, just that they offer marginally more than before. A landing stage close to the railhead is achievable and would be a substantial change for the better.
We still accept a transport philosophy which moves people like cattle – whether its the experience at airports, ports or motorway service stations.
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Apart from db’s first ponit, everything else makes good sense.
The speed limit *is* 12 knots east of Cloch Point, as detailed in Clydeport’s Leisure Navigation Guide (2012):
“The speed limit upstream of Cloch Point is 12 knots, and 5 knots at locations marked by ‘Dead Slow’ notice boards. Due regard must be paid to the effect of your wash – see Clydeport Notices to Mariners.”
http://www.clydeport.co.uk/cms_uploaded/Clydeport_Leisure_Navigation_Guide_4th_Ed_2012.pdf
Notices to Mariners form just a small part of Clydeport’s legislation.
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That isn’t a statutory document and it doesn’t cite one. It’s an advisory note for leisure users. I find it disappointing that Clydeport do not publish the bylaws from which these advisory notes are prepared. This is common practice elsewhere.
I note that this subject was broached when Argyll Ferries started; the published minutes imply that it is a discretionary matter, but that Clydeport’s response was ‘Computer says no!’.
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‘…Clydeport do not publish the byelaws’ I don’t understand, how can byelaws have any authority of they’re not published – even if they’re cloaked in such convoluted legal gobbledygook (my guess) that advisory notes are needed to render them intelligible to the common man?
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I mean published electronically; this is 2012, even A&BC publish notices online. I have contacted Clydeport to enquire where the bylaws may be viewed.
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My source info was a Clydeport employee, who answered the phone when i called them several months ago and pointed me to where I could see the 12 knot limit in print, after I pointed out that it wasn’t in the NTMs.
I assumed – wrongly apparently – that the info given was good enough and could be taken as de facto.
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I can believe that Clydeport do have the authority to set a speed limit, but I would like to see what the bylaws say rather than take the word of a badly edited advisory note. Clydeport have statutory authority, but we should not permit them to assume authority beyond that.
There is plenty of precedent for relaxing speed limits where there is a sound case for it; the Thames Clippers have permission to operate at 30 knots in specified stretches of the Thames, with speed restrictions where wash, movements of other vessels or limited sightlines necessitate a lower limit for safety reasons.
Other than immediately approaching Kempock point, there are no restricted sightlines on the Gourock-Dunoon route, and the open nature of the sea area makes observance of COLREGS with respect to other vessels straightforward.
The areas potentially affected by wash are:
1)the moorings between Kempock point and McInroy’s point; this can be mitigated by specifying a minimum stand-off distance passing this area.
2)the Kilcreggan-Gourock ferry landing and 3)the moorings in Cardwell bay; the ferry will be slowing by the time it is approaching these points anyway in accordance with the existing NTM, so there will be no extra disturbance.
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