Comment posted Russell favours forestry route for the A83 Glen Croe emergency diversion by Robert Wakeham.
Derek it’s a great deal more than a ‘deforested zone’ – it’s a glacially over-steepened valley slope, and we could be deluding ourselves that trees could do enough to arrest saturation and rapid run-off sufficient to ‘cure the problem’, even if they’d help in the long term.
Robert Wakeham also commented
- I know what you’re talking about, but I think there are some problems – the question of whether the surface drift geology in Glen Croe would make this a success, and the time it would take to establish effective woodland (with risk of damage from landslips before then).
It’s easy to think of galleries as an ‘urban’ solution, but they’re not – the older masonry & concrete ones can be very heavy and obtrusive in the landscape, but more recent designs using steel are much less ‘clunky’, albeit still visible. - Newsroom – it’s been confirmed that the old road upgrade is being designed to take all traffic, including big trucks (in convoys).
- Dr M – there are places in the world where roads parallel to a steep slope are built out on columns clear of the hillside, above the risk of rockfalls and earthslips, but viaducts, galleries or any other structures would have to be founded into solid enough ground below the unstable surface layer. If there are geological problems with finding secure footings on the line of the A83 then re-routing with tunnelling might be a real option. I’ll be shot down by the ‘can’t do’ trolls for saying that, but in the land of the real trolls there are some remarkable examples of what can be done, including conservation of redundant mountain roads for their historic and tourism value.
- According to Transport Scotland the old road option is preferred because the forestry road is narrow, on a steep slope (thus at more risk of a serious accident in use), and just as susceptible as the A83 to landslip damage in bad weather; the route of the old road is considered far less prone to the effects of landslips than the A83 above.
Apparently the intention is to make the old road usable by all types of vehicle (in convoys), by resurfacing and widening at bends – but a reassuring note is that the old road is a popular film location and Transport Scotland have reassured the landholders that the character of the road won’t be compromised. - Ferryman, given the distorted scorn with which you greeted the perfectly feasible notion of a tunnel under the Clyde at Dunoon (from ‘profound ignorance’, perhaps?), and that you’re too pig-headed to consider the option of a tunnel under the Rest, you’re on shaky ground if you try lecturing anyone on matters technical – even on your preferred subject of ferryboats you’re inclined to let bile get in the way of reasoned debate. And to assume that no-one has any confidence in Transport Scotland is just plain silly.
Recent comments by Robert Wakeham
- Walsh to lead all but Lib Dems, Conservatives and George Freeman
I’m just wondering if this is a wild goose chase – barking up the wrong tree, so to speak – and it might be a creature of a different political colour altogether? - Walsh to lead all but Lib Dems, Conservatives and George Freeman
Talking of Conservatives, and bearing in mind the ornithological wonders of this part of the world, has anyone yet spotted a swivel-eyed loon? – or is it an imaginary creature? - First Minister’s choice not to condemn mob behaviour proves Farage point
Farage was in Edinburgh to raise the profile of UKIP – don’t underestimate wee Nige. - Walsh to lead all but Lib Dems, Conservatives and George Freeman
This reads uncannily like a description of Tommy Sheridan’s erstwhile political buddies – although they, thank goodness, have never managed to grab the reins of power. - Finally, SNP Government delivers a passenger ferry capable of seeing off Western Ferries
There’s a quite accurate measure of economic activity if you look around at where tower cranes signify construction in progress, and there are more in London than in the whole of the rest of Britain. Last autumn at a do in London I suggested to a senior Canary Wharf construction executive that London was increasingly behaving like a separate ‘city state’, with an economy that operated independently to that of the rest of Britain.
He was dismissive of this idea, but I’m not so sure.
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It’s good to hear that our MSP – a government minister – is not convinced that the old road is the sensible emergency route.
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Galleries, as mentioned in the article, are clearly the only way to go. Using the old road for modern transport is the idea of a moron (or a governmental penny pincher – same thing really).
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All that we are seeing here is a total lack of proper detailed consideration of the options. What is the engineering consideration of the forest route, what is the engineering consireration of the miltary road route, what is the engineering consideration of building gallaries over the existing A83?
Forargyll happily proposes solutions from profound ingnorance with no knowledge or experience just at is does in its pronouncements about the Dunoon Gourock ferry.
Everybody rightly has no confidence in Transport Scotland so where therfore does authoritative information come from?
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Ferryman, given the distorted scorn with which you greeted the perfectly feasible notion of a tunnel under the Clyde at Dunoon (from ‘profound ignorance’, perhaps?), and that you’re too pig-headed to consider the option of a tunnel under the Rest, you’re on shaky ground if you try lecturing anyone on matters technical – even on your preferred subject of ferryboats you’re inclined to let bile get in the way of reasoned debate. And to assume that no-one has any confidence in Transport Scotland is just plain silly.
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What about costs? There already is an alternative route – via Crianlarich and Dalmally – available at no additional cost. Is the inconvenience of the occasional diversion so bad that we need to spend a fortune on what can only be a single track alternative route in Glen Croe? Ferryman is absolutely right: we need a serious, detailed look at all the possibilities, including the full costs of each, before we rush headlong into anything.
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“including the full costs of each, before we rush headlong into anything.”
Rush ? Govt.? Which planet do you live on?
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According to Transport Scotland the old road option is preferred because the forestry road is narrow, on a steep slope (thus at more risk of a serious accident in use), and just as susceptible as the A83 to landslip damage in bad weather; the route of the old road is considered far less prone to the effects of landslips than the A83 above.
Apparently the intention is to make the old road usable by all types of vehicle (in convoys), by resurfacing and widening at bends – but a reassuring note is that the old road is a popular film location and Transport Scotland have reassured the landholders that the character of the road won’t be compromised.
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While I deplore Ferryman’s tone and off-topic inserts, I’d like to repeat his questions and urge answers, i.e. figures, be published soonest: What is the engineering consideration/cost of the forest route, what is the engineering consideration/cost of the miltary road route, what is the engineering consideration/cost of building gallaries over the existing A83?
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Absolutely.
There has to be a consideration of best value – and the Argyll electorate who suffer from the vulnerability of this vital road, have to be a core part of this decision taking.
We remain concerned about the irresponsibility of wasting scarce financial resources on a make do emergency route – which will then be all that happens for many years to come.
This sum has to be more beneficially directed as part of an immediate address to the heart of the matter – getting the galleries built over the threatened section of the A83.
It is preferable to carry on as we are with an early date for the completion of the permanent solution.
The long diversion when it is necessary, is also better applied to all concerned while we wait for a committed date for a secure A83.
The proposed solution is likely to see cars wending their way up Glen Croe somehow. with trucks still on the long diversion.
This heavily discriminates against business, leaving it to meet continuing higher fuel costs for the unforeeable future.
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There is a bit of a fly in the thinking here.
Galleries may be the solution (though I think I’ll wait for a review of the options from a suitably qualified engineer before jumping on any particular, err, wagon) or it may be another option. However, whatever option is chosen (other than a tunnel) there will be a need to shut the road down to allow engineering work to be carried out and perhaps for a much longer time than is the case for the Pulpit Rock work.
Surely, the most sensible thing to do is to improve the alternative route (the old Military Road) so that it is not only available for emergencies but also as a relief road while engineering work is carried out on the main road?
So the work on the Military Road is not a waste of money. It is instead a sensible approach to the problem while we wait for the results of a proper investigation in how to enhance the usability of the road – particularly in the face of the likelihood that the sort of weather we have been facing is likely to increase because of increasing water content in the atmosphere.
Lastly, for those so convinced that galleries are the way forward and we should get on with this solution NOW – ponder this: the current main route is on a slope and runs parallel to the slope (whereas the military road lies pretty much at the bottom of two slopes and climbs up the face of the slope when it needs to). What are the possible consequences of adding many tonnes of concrete onto a road that runs parallel to and onthe slope? Think about it….. Hence the need to wait for a proper engineering assessment of the best solution to this problem and a proper costing of the different options.
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Dr M – there are places in the world where roads parallel to a steep slope are built out on columns clear of the hillside, above the risk of rockfalls and earthslips, but viaducts, galleries or any other structures would have to be founded into solid enough ground below the unstable surface layer. If there are geological problems with finding secure footings on the line of the A83 then re-routing with tunnelling might be a real option. I’ll be shot down by the ‘can’t do’ trolls for saying that, but in the land of the real trolls there are some remarkable examples of what can be done, including conservation of redundant mountain roads for their historic and tourism value.
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Precisely: adding galleries, viaducts or whatever adds considerable weight to the slopes making it necessary to reinforce the road itself so it doesn’t slip (which adds even more weight to the slope…). Cuttings can also destabilise slopes. So the solution will have to ensure that it doesn’t make the problem worse.
I as going to say that thankfully civil engineers think about these things but then I was reminded of the old joke:
Q: What is the difference between a medic and an engineer?
A: Medics kill in ones.
First rule to building roads in land slip prone areas is to avoid the areas prone to land slip as this is the cheapest and most effective solution. However, this is not an option in our case.
Each situation is unique (a combination of geology, topography and the importance of the road) so solutions tend also to be unique. The Rest and be Thankful is a classic case where work to improve the road gradient actually makes it more vulnerable to landslips. I suspect there will never be a perfect solution.
I have no objections to tunnels and have been through enough of them in different parts of the world to recognise that they are a legitimate solution to mountain terrain in many instances. My only caveat would be on cost and whether this could be justified on socio-economic grounds. However, this is based purely on a gut feeling that any tunnel solution would require a long tunnel and that would be expensive. It would be interesting to see some sort of estimate first of required tunnel length and then the likely cost.
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As ever – a considered response from the Doc.
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Newsroom – it’s been confirmed that the old road upgrade is being designed to take all traffic, including big trucks (in convoys).
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Seems to me like a half-assed solution dreamt up by half-assed officials who will do anything to not have to fork out the big bucks for a proper and long-lasting answer.
Sometimes you just need to man up and accept the truth. The Rest and Be Thankful needs completely overhauled.
Its a fact. Get over it and start finding cash for a proper solution.
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For those interested in the engineering behind rebuilding roads in active slide zones, here is a very informative site on a project in the USA: http://www.restore14.com/gallery/
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When they’ve finished with that one – we have a job for them… stunning photos
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How much will the landowner get from the Scottish Government for using the old road?
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Once again we are talking about landslides.
Please can we start with recognising this is a deforested zone. Can we further realise that the appropriate type of trees would hold the landscape inplace – it does in other areas of northern Europe with equal gradient and rainfall.
If we use species with light canopies and suckering root systems then we can alleviate the condition. Aspen, Alder and willows are suitable and if we were not sensetive about non-native species then Grey Alder would be ideal. If the government were to make funds available for compulsory purchase then the area could be turned over to the local community (nearest) to manage and perhaps get biofuel from coppicing the willows. But please do not think that massive invasive road works are our only solution.
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Derek it’s a great deal more than a ‘deforested zone’ – it’s a glacially over-steepened valley slope, and we could be deluding ourselves that trees could do enough to arrest saturation and rapid run-off sufficient to ‘cure the problem’, even if they’d help in the long term.
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Robert you are right in the respect of its glacial origin however, on slopes of similar gradient, soil depth and annual rainfall in western Norway they have forested slopes. Trees will grow there and will control the water table. It would have been forested in previous times.
It is vital though that appropriate species are used and, as you point out, that a long term view is taken, particularly with respect to their species composition. We should also see the importance of access and management by local communities. empower them to manage and maitain it.
I think there is an opportunity build something holistic and rural here rather than an urban solution to an environmental problem. I’m sure For Argyll will furnish you with my e-mail address and I can e-mail you a photo from Norway of what I’m talking about.
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I know what you’re talking about, but I think there are some problems – the question of whether the surface drift geology in Glen Croe would make this a success, and the time it would take to establish effective woodland (with risk of damage from landslips before then).
It’s easy to think of galleries as an ‘urban’ solution, but they’re not – the older masonry & concrete ones can be very heavy and obtrusive in the landscape, but more recent designs using steel are much less ‘clunky’, albeit still visible.
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