Comment posted Local government: party political or independent? by phill.
Wrong Gerry
Can think of two in my ward (Sean Macintyre and Neil macIntyre) both ‘Independent’ and both certainly not Tories, and both likely to be councillors.
phill also commented
- As alluded to previously, you may have say an SNP member wishing to become a councillor, and does not receive the backing of the party as a candidate, then that person has the right to stand if not Snp, but Independent. They still believe in the ideals of their party, but believe more strongly in their own ability to make a difference, and will not be whipped in to place, so stand under their own steam. Why should they be forced to relinquish membership of that party.
- I think Donald Kelly has (as explained in the excellent article above) been upfront with voters, in his politics and voting intentions. That gives the electorate the choice to say ‘aye’ or ‘nay’. The only people adversly affected by this position could be Conservative voters who wmay feel their position somewhat diluted. To Cllr Kelly’s credit he has been totally honest.
There is also the position of (say) a candidate puting themselves forward for election, and failing to win the endorsement of their political party vetting process (which we dont generally hear about). They then may choose to stand as an independent and depending on the (whatever) party rules, have to relinquish membership.
Once again a first class article above from ‘forargyll’.
Recent comments by phill
- White smoke rises from Councillor Duncan MacIntyre’s chimney as two-man College of Cardinals settle a deal
Doubt it! The opposition have shown themselves as pretty toothless in that that they didnt want to have the responsibility of running the show. - White smoke rises from Councillor Duncan MacIntyre’s chimney as two-man College of Cardinals settle a deal
I know Neil. You have hit the nail on the head – ‘Where does that leave the SNP?’ - White smoke rises from Councillor Duncan MacIntyre’s chimney as two-man College of Cardinals settle a deal
If ‘kgv’ you truly believe your own comment, what do you have to say about the SNP who let them back in. We need stability and the snp let the voters down and they wont be back for a long time, which is a great disappointment as they promised so much, and were tactically astute in oppostition.
As they say ‘kgv’ – ‘better thedevil you know’. I say well done to Duncan who will return a wiser leader. - White smoke rises from Councillor Duncan MacIntyre’s chimney as two-man College of Cardinals settle a deal
Good to have Duncans’ experience back in harness. He will steady the ship and that is important in this humiliating period we have had in Argyll of late. - Robust meeting of SNP Group sees growing resistance to ‘Edinburgh’ influence
Very sharp ‘Islay’.
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Re Donald Kelly.
I much prefer the SNP position. If you stand for the Council as an independent you relinquish your SNP membership. I cannot see how a member of a political party can actually be politically independent.
That is contradictory
Actually Bruce Marshall, a candidate in the Cowal Ward, tried to stand for the Tories at this coming election but they chased him. He was coming away with the same guff about being a Tory but independent on the council. He was initially elected as a Tory but he ascended to the well paid post of Vice Chair of the Area Committee when he became an independent. And we still don’t know if Chris Lambert, standing as an Independent in the same ward, is still a member of the LIbDems (for which he served as a councillor in Kirn).
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I think Donald Kelly has (as explained in the excellent article above) been upfront with voters, in his politics and voting intentions. That gives the electorate the choice to say ‘aye’ or ‘nay’. The only people adversly affected by this position could be Conservative voters who wmay feel their position somewhat diluted. To Cllr Kelly’s credit he has been totally honest.
There is also the position of (say) a candidate puting themselves forward for election, and failing to win the endorsement of their political party vetting process (which we dont generally hear about). They then may choose to stand as an independent and depending on the (whatever) party rules, have to relinquish membership.
Once again a first class article above from ‘forargyll’.
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As someone who has some friends who are Tories but is,I fear, programmed so that I cannot possibly imagine voting for their policies I am truly perplexed about Donald Kelly’s stance. He states that he is nominated as a Conservative and Unionist but will not follow the Conservative line when in the Council. That seems far from clear to me!
I see that you state that in Scotland “independents predominate” Is this true? I find it difficult to believe.
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I still can’tsee how you can be a member of a political party and stand as a “independent”.
It also smacks of weakness by the political party involved and in the political committment of the actual member.
I fully undertand however why candidates may not find standing as Tory or LibDem much help in getting them elected. I’m sure across the country there are many in this election who have not been as honest as Donald Kelly and are flying under false colours
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As alluded to previously, you may have say an SNP member wishing to become a councillor, and does not receive the backing of the party as a candidate, then that person has the right to stand if not Snp, but Independent. They still believe in the ideals of their party, but believe more strongly in their own ability to make a difference, and will not be whipped in to place, so stand under their own steam. Why should they be forced to relinquish membership of that party.
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Because they will be standing against Party candidates- which under the Party’s rules means automatic expulsion. Its a matter of Party discipline.
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I have to say I think much of this article misses the point that it makes right at the start – these are local elections and that makes them several degrees more sophisticated than national elections. Folk voting much more to consider. They have to balance what they know, and often know personally, about the abilities of the candidates; what each candidate say they will achieve; and what the electors can realistically expect candidates to achieve in their interests (in-spite of what the candidate said). People change how they vote for council elections particularly under STV. I have spoken to both staunch Labour and Conservative voters in South Kintyre who will be voting SNP in the council elections. These people would never, even in their wildest dreams, support us in a national election. They see a good job being done and so support that work. Council elections are not about one kind of politics mantra or idea vs another, they are about common sense.
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I agree wholeheartedly with John Semple. For me national politics and strategy are largely irrelevant when it comes to deciding on who to support in local elections. The focus should be on the local candidate and whether you feel they are the right person to represent you, and your community. If they are currently serving councillors then there is a track record which can be used as evidence and which they can be judged upon. If they are standing as candidates who have never been elected then there is more of a need for a leap of faith and also the possibility of other local knowledge and community involvement which could help people make an informed decision.
I know of people who won’t vote for an SNP candidate because of the Independence issue and I also know of people who won’t vote for a Tory candidate because of the Unionist argument. These are national issues and independence, or otherwise, will happen regardless of what occurs at local government level.
We are an area made up of a small number of urban areas and a mass of rural communities and we need people who are committed to protecting, and improving, this way of life. For that to happen you need your ward councillors to be committed to representing you, not a national manifesto. This doesn’t mean for one second that I am saying you should vote for an Independent Councillor and ignore the party affiliated ones – candidates can be party affiliated and committed to their communities. I am just saying that I think what is most important is the person rather than the colour of the badge they are wearing.
We have witnessed, across A&B wards, some of the current crop of councillors letting their communities down by sticking to a party line on school closures – many of them telling the public one thing whilst voting in direct conflict to their words. Councillors like that we don’t need because if they will do it on issues like schools then you can be sure they will do it again when other issues arise.
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Worse, far worse, was when that “party line” was the blind support by supposedly “independent” councillors to adhere to the discredited Walsh/Sneddon line in the face of effective community opposition and, it would appear, in some cases at least, for the prospect of enhanced financial reward.
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Some of the comments here seem to be a pre-emptive attempt to justify local issues over what is best for Argyll and Bute as whole.
Provided a party has a programme which is responsive to local needs then there is no reason why its programme cannot be region wide.
A & B is diverse and as a result more challenging than any other part of Scotland, but funding is tight. Consequently efforts must be focused on increasing an economically active population while ensuring an equitable social policy.
That means that parochialism must have no place in the new administration. Are Independents up to that challenge?
It would have been refreshing if candidates had challenged voters to ask what contribution the voters could make rather than the promises from candidates which with one or two exceptions show a worrying lack of ambition and vision.
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I challenge those who wax generous about independent councillors and independent run councils to have a look at the last twenty years of Audit Commission reports on delivery of good local government and note which councils invariably inhabit the bottom few places.
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What we’re suggesting as a experiment would look after this sort of mess.
The fundamental problem is GP elected members put in specialist positions where they don’t know what they’re doing.
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The whole problem with Independents ( so-called although most of them are actually Conservative without the intestinal fortitude to admit to that ) is that they , by and large, stand without any policy commitment. And so when they follow the Walsh line – the one Independent who knows what he is doing, although he wouldnt admit to it in his election address – they cannot be held to have broken a commitment to their electors. Newsroom has commented often enough about how they soit there in Kilmory, saying nothing and not even being sure how to vote on a motion until they get the message from the Leader. They are all members of the Walsh Party, without any Party policy because Dick hasnt told them what it is.
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Wrong Gerry
Can think of two in my ward (Sean Macintyre and Neil macIntyre) both ‘Independent’ and both certainly not Tories, and both likely to be councillors.
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I can’t agree with you entirely on this Gerry. Sure there has been an issue of Walsh and his lapdogs, but surely these closet Tories are then actually following Mr Walsh’s Labour origins?
And then we have the example of George Freeman, who as an Independent, made a stand against Walsh (and boy did it cost him) but he has been steadfast in representing the views of his constituents.
The goal is clear though, Walsh’s useless cronies – or non-independent independents – have got to go.
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Some interesting comments but where does Mary Jean Devon and her coat of many colours feature in the list of quality.
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There are plenty of good Independent candidates out there, who articulate their own policy priorities in their leaflets. What voters need to ask them is whether they intend to remain independent and fight for those priorities, or whether they intend to join an ‘Alliance of Independents’ large enough to form a majority ruling group.
If the latter, then they should be challenged to be upfront, before the election, about what the policy vision & priorities of that group should be, and their own ‘red line’ conditions for joining it.
Independents have an important and valuable role to play in a council, bringing professional experience or a genuine non party-political interest in the concerns of their constituents into the mix. However, those who are content simply to drift by gravity towards a political ‘strong man’ or two, and then do their bidding in a policy vacuum, need to be shown the door.
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In my opinion all local councillors should stand as Independents and not under a Party ticket. Local councillors should remember that they are elected as representatives of their local electorate and not lining their own pockets at council taxpayers expense.
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The independent thing doesn’t make any sense to me, (though I’m happy that there are independents who are on the side of the angels).
There are 36 councillors. If they all fight for their own corners, they’ll have two or three buddies in their ward, which makes a maximum of four against 32. You might link up with a neighbouring ward and make it eight, but you’d still be outvoted by the others. So each is battling for its own corner, none can achieve his/her aim alone, and no-one has any real focus on the larger picture.
It’s not effective and it leaves us open to the kind of nonsense that sees the Alliance of Independents and the Lib Dems with the voting power to close schools, whilst each of them shamefacedly claims to be fighting tooth and nail for their own ward. And since you didn’t ask any of them what their policies were, you’d be hard pushed to complain about the things they do. So long as they appear to be fighting for you, they get away with it.
That’s why I’m happier with parties or groups that have clear policy. The idea that it’s anti-local is misfounded. Those policies are there for everyone to see. You can vote for the policies you wantfor your area, as well as a person you think can work towards them, effectively and with the benefit of a group of colleagues who will also have the same aim when they cast their votes in council.
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All independent councils?
The proven recipe for aimless, policyless and completely unreliable councils.
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Finally, Marshall has admitted it. How two faced can you get, telling voters party politics has no place in local government but at the same time desperately trying to rejoin the Tory fold.
http://www.cowalcourier.com
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When the Tories don’t want you you really need to start looking in the mirror. Hell they even welcomed the Lib Dems!
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Anne – “That’s why I’m happier with parties or groups that have clear policy”. Can you clarify soemthing for me please
Is it snp policy to give the right of veto to parents of pupils in rural schools but not to give that same right to any other grouping threatened with service cuts?
Or is that just your own idea?
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Back to trolling again I see “Simon”. This subject was dealt with in depth in another thread. If anyone is interested in it search back a bit. For the rest of us I suggest just ignoring this.
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Rubbish “doc” – I’m asking Anne if the giving parents in a rural schoola right of veto is official SNP policy – or her own idea. Totally differnt question to what was asked previously – and if you had been paying attention you would have noticed that.
Thsi question is asked inthe contex tof Anne’s declared preferencce – “That’s why I’m happier with parties or groups that have clear policy”.
My question is asking if this is veto thingy is SNP policy.This si not the same as asking Anne if she would extend this veto right to other groups.
Do at least try to keep up “doc”…
But while I’m on why do you feel the need to protect Anne and advise everyone else on how best to treat questions from me? Paternalism knows best eh “doc”??
Have a nice day.
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Oh c’mon “doc” – don’t do an evading and avoiding Anne on me – just answwer the question!!!!
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Simon – if you were asked to do a review on the tenure of Councillor Walsh and his Alliance group accompanied by Mrs Louden and her Senior Management, what would you say?
They’ve done ok? Could do a lot better? Can hold their heads high?
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Scruff – I started to write a jokey response but recognise that you deserve a better answer.
My honest opinion is that wee Tricky Dicky is head and shoulders above the rest of the ‘politicians’ at Kilmory. The combined efforts of EVERY OPPOSITION COUNCILLOR could not muster an alternative to Tricky’s budget.
It was Clinton who said “It’s the economy stupid” – now if the combined opposition cannot come up with alternatives to Tricky’s budget – what are we the electorate to deduce???
Duh!!!
They are numpties. And incompotent numpties at that.
I also like the fact that Tricky and his administration have taken an overall view of the Council services when it comes to the service cuts imposed by the snp government.
There are those on here who would demand that rural schools with small and falling rolls be preserved at ALL costs. You’ll find that these selfish-single issue folks don’t care about the big picture and don’t really care about others. As far as they are concerned you can make cuts to any other sector but theirs. They are NIMBY – no cuts – NIMBY.
There you go Scruff – make of it what you will.
But do have a nice evening.
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Simon – thank you. We have spoken about the merit or otherwise of Dick Walsh before, and I agree that his last budget was a very good ‘political’ budget. It was certainly designed to be a vote winner but as you know, ‘vote winning’ budgets aren’t always the best budgets.
I disagree with your comments and opinion on rural schools, but there are others who are better positioned to argue with you on that one.
Can I ask, have you read the Fatal Accident Inquiry into the deaths of Niamh Lafferty and Georgia Rowe? How do you feel the Council discharged it’s duties in relation to this case? Do you have an opinion as to why managers ignored and/or dismissed the recommendations made by their own Social Workers on several occassions?
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Scruff – no I haven’t read it and I don’t have an opinion.
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You should, in fact anyone who still thinks Argyll and Bute Council has any credibility left really should read it, every single word of it.
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