Nice to hear that Webcraft thinks that NTA …

Comment posted No Tiree Array campaigners play the Trump card by robtrythall.

Nice to hear that Webcraft thinks that NTA ” may well
have a case ” but NTA has been addressing the issues of environmental and economic damage arising from Scot Govt off shore windfarm proposals,long before D Trump realised there was an issue here.

With respect to Webcraft, NTA is not linking itself to D Trump .

NTA might suggest that Webcraft’S use of word like ” “obnoxious ” and ” claptrap” would suggest that Webcraft may be intolerant of any opinion contrary to his own.

The issues Trump refers to merit national debate . NTA has been asking for that debate. Scotland requires that debate.

Recent comments by robtrythall

  • No Tiree Array campaigner invited to write for Think Scotland
    Dont be silly.

    Brian M, was only this morning was advised by me, of your perspective of “Think Scotland”.

    He was unaware ,up to then, of the ” For Argyll exchanges

    Basis this time frame BM cannot be be guilty of your accusation re getting ‘so many of his centre-right free marketeering colleagues to give u the old ‘thumbs down’.

    Anyway , As I said at the outset, what has it to do with the issues raised in the article.

    I have been contacted by the Guardian re my article. Does the Guardian create similar problems for you?

    rgds

  • No Tiree Array campaigner invited to write for Think Scotland
    Must be the air on Tiree,,or the wind, ’cos I never knew Think Scotland was a Tory paper. I am quite sure Basking Sharks don’t know either, and don’t care.

    In that respect I must be confessional. I have never, in my life, voted Tory. On the same confessional theme I have never jumped into bed with anyone because they are ‘on my side’. In fact I think it is physically quite difficult to jump into bed with someone, if that someone is on the ‘same side’.

    I was a child of the 60’s I was never a fan of the bouffant. All that hairspray!! And as for a dalliance..just think about the morning afterwards ..please … lets not go there!

    Your political perspective is naïve. If one is a critic of government policy “working from within” may work if the government concerned is demonstrably willing to listen, engage and effectively respond. There is no evidence to suggest the current Scottish Government is willing to do so, on the contrary the evidence suggests it becoming more strident and doctrinaire.

  • No Tiree Array on basking sharks, night time visuals and divergent wind subsidy regimes between Scotland and Westminster
    SPR’s persistent refusal suggests the legislation, and its lack of any meaning sanctions, may not be fit for purpose.

    SPR’s consistent lack of response,in the past, provoked NTA into a substantive presentation, in Feb this year to both SG and MS re SPR’s possible breach of its public information obligations to the process.

    That submission resulted in an immediate volte-face by SPR. The Array information page on SPR’s website was updated for the first time in 9 months. It included presentation of SPR’s day-time visualisations which had last been seen 9 months earlier, on a” now you see ‘em..now you dont” basis.

    Let NTA worry about its strategy,but thanks for your concern.

    As for leaving or staying in Tiree if the Array goes ahead, I cant speak for Karl, but after my last medical MOT, on an actuarial basis,there is a grave danger(no pun intended)I wont be around if it was to go ahead.

  • Now see for yourself: For Argyll challenges anyone to say SPR plans for Argyll Array at Tiree are acceptable
    This is very subjective

    Of course there are certain houses in specific spots on Tiree that will have a very limited view of the Array . Of course any house at the bottom of one of Tiree’s 3 small hills (145m)will have a limited view of the proposed Array (200m) .

    From my own house, from the ground floor I will see only the tops of the closer turbines, but from my upstairs, I will will see a considerable portion of the total Array.

    Your “view” can be put in its true Tiree visual perspective if any reader goes to the ‘Visualisations’ page of the NTA w/site and clicks on the OBAN TIMES VIDEO This was made incorporating the SPR visualisations that SPR have now posted on their w/site.

    The visual evidence of the negative visual impact of the proposed Array is all there to see,and might explain why it has taken 11 attritional months to get SPR to produce these what they could have done 11 moths ago

    And SPR’s reason for this 11 months refusal
    was quote ” It’s not consumer friendly to put such large files on line”unquote

    Maybe SPR should let the consumer judge what is unfriendly .

  • Marine Scotland identifies 15 new Scottish sea areas for offshore wind
    There is nothing substantively new in this report than was not in the post adoption report March 2011.

    Reminding the Renewables Industry at the EWEA conference in Amsterdam was hardly co-incidental, coming as it did in the week that the host nation’s government announced a slow down in off shore development, due to its cost, and the current international economic crisis.

    It’s a wake up call. The entire WC Scotland, one of the world’s s most stunning marine environments is up for grabs, and Scottish Government is the pimp (that is not an OTT reaction).

    The mantra of self-justification by Govt spokesmen ,is becoming increasingly vacuous, eg nonsense like ” reindustrialisation of Scotland’s communities” What is Lochhead talking about? If he only looks at his own windfarm development maps, he will understand that most of the impacted communities were never industrialised.

    In a similar vein Alex S recently alluded to that Kenneth McKELLAR favourite “The Song of the Clyde” and its line “…But from Glasgow to Greenock, in towns on each side,
    The hammers ding-dong is the song of the Clyde” .

    Wonderful, romantic, evocative stuff, but in the recently published(NOV 2011)“ Wind in our Sails- The coming of Europe’s offshore wind energy industry”( a report by the European Wind Energy Association), hammers ding-donging on the Clyde, let alone the WC of Scotland,does not get a mention!!

    This nonsense aside, what is lost in this debate, to the politicians delight,is the subsidy costs faced by Scottish Taxpayers to finance SNP policy whereby Scotland will generate 100% more than its electricity requirements. This extra production is for export to make Scotland the Saudi Arabia of renewables(SNP Manifesto).

    Where is the research to support this business plan? How is the export pricing mechanism going to work. No-Tiree-Array (NTA) has asked Alex Salmond this,and many other re related questions. NTA still awaits his reply.

    Go to www.no-tiree-array.org.uk

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34 Responses to Nice to hear that Webcraft thinks that NTA …

  1. I think the No Tiree Array campaigners have a very good case and I wish them every success – but I’m not convinced linking themselves to Trump is the right way to go.

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  2. The NTA campaign may well have a case, but linking themselves to obnoxious lunatics like Trump, promoting climate denial claptrap and generally being insdiscriminate in picking allies and evidence to support their cause is not necessarily helpful.

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    • Nice to hear that Webcraft thinks that NTA ” may well
      have a case ” but NTA has been addressing the issues of environmental and economic damage arising from Scot Govt off shore windfarm proposals,long before D Trump realised there was an issue here.

      With respect to Webcraft, NTA is not linking itself to D Trump .

      NTA might suggest that Webcraft’S use of word like ” “obnoxious ” and ” claptrap” would suggest that Webcraft may be intolerant of any opinion contrary to his own.

      The issues Trump refers to merit national debate . NTA has been asking for that debate. Scotland requires that debate.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Trump is obnoxious and his opinions are claptrap. That means I am intolerant of Donald Trump. It does not mean I am ‘intolerant of any opinion contrary to (my) own’.

        I am slightly alarmed though by groups who have an objection to a development in their own area who then seek to justify that objection by aligning themselves with climate change deniers, renewables rubbishers and similar forces of darkness.

        The inhabitants of Tiree have obvious reason to be concerned by what is a very large industrial development in the waters off the island. There are surely all sorts of reasons for taking the planning process to task in terms of the local environment and economy.

        However, like many other local protest groups suddenly it seems NTA is fighting a ‘huge national scandal’ rather than a local planning issue. All too often, such groups suddenly aren’t content with stopping their local development; now all wind farms are wrong, the entire technology is rubbish and anyway what do you know, there isn’t any CO2 problem.

        No Tiree Array started with the usual statement made by such groups – ‘We are not against renewables per se’ – then went on to explain in fairly reasonable tones why this particular development was unacceptable.
        Nowadays it does sometimes seem, reading the NTA website, that any stick will do to beat the turbines with though.

        Trump is a genuine lunatic, a failed GOP presidential candidate who made a fool of himself shouting for Obama’s birth certificate, a climate change denier, a man who has tried to drive people out of their homes in Aberdeenshire . . . and that’s before we even mention the hair. You do not IMO do yourselves any credit by publishing his idiotic letter to Salmond on your website.
        .

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        • Approval of Off-Shore wind farms is not a simple “local planning issue”.

          Off-shore wind farms are derived from national Government policy. The consenting process is unique. It is executed ,exclusively through a newly created government department,implementing legislation only passed 10 months ago. Local government is not involved. The ultimate consenting authority, in Scotland, is vested with the First Minister.

          The Licencing and Consenting process is advisory,and lacks any mandatory strictures.

          Go to http://www.no-tiree-array.org.uk for a detailed presentation of the process.

          Tiree Array represents 40% of Scottish Government’s 1st phase offshore development. A Government agency has indicated the ” political pressure ” to consent Tiree Array is “immense”.

          In such circumstances NTA raises many serious questions re Scottish Government’s policy. Scottish Government’s answers to date,have,in the main,been platitudinous.

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    • I too think the No Tiree Array lot should be very careful who they are seen to be citing in their campaign. Particularly when you read Trump’s letter and realise that he has made a number of serious errors in what he says, including claiming that the Netherlands has abolished its offshore wind programme which is robustly denied in a letter in today’s Scotsman.
      Ministers and MSPs receiving the NTA’s endorsement of Trump’s letter just days after receiving the diatribe itself, might well feel less than supportive of the NTA.

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  3. If Trump’s a lunatic he’s a clever one – he even got Sir Ian Wood to give him an honorary degree from RGU – but to call him obnoxious is surely being disgustingly polite.

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  4. I don’t know much about the Tiree Array, it may well be excessive in scale. But three miles is more than half-way to the horizon. For comparison here’s a picture of Robin Rigg windfarm in the Solway firth from an elevation of about 90 metres.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ztephen/3804758609/

    and here’s one from sea level.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ztephen/4734833837/

    The loss of the sublime open spaces of the Solway was an aesthetic blow of course, but Robin Rigg has a very high level of availability, it just sits out there chugging out electricity in all but the stillest weather.

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  5. I am afraid you are incorrect with your distances – from a height of 90 metres distance to the horizon is almost 24 miles ! Google ‘ No Tiree Array’ and you will find out a lot more – watch the video !

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    • I meant at sea level! Honest. Well, that’s what I get for posting comments without checking everything first.

      http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/15/how-far-away-is-the-horizon/

      This is quite handy. According to Phil’s table, the horizon at 2 metres altitude is nearly 4 miles away. Which makes me wrong, coming and going!

      I certainly will look into the Tiree Array in more detail now; but did you actually look at the pictures? The point I was trying to make is that picture at the top of the article may have exaggerated the “thickness” of the turbines… maybe someone with more time than me should have a go at modelling the Array in Google Earth?

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      • To avoid any further confusion as to what one can see or not see with regard to an offshore wind farm, please refer to SNH’s report Noo 103 ” An Assessent of the Sensitivity of the Scottish Seascape in relation to Windfarms ”

        p13 ” The towers of 5MW turbines are likely to be 5m diameter .If we take 5m as an example then a viewer could theoretically see the tower at 50Km ”

        This report recommends p 14 ;- “… a seaward outer limit of 35km for seascape units .. as a precautionary principle”

        Re Robin Rigg : Its 60 turbines are 3MW /130m high
        minimum 8km off. Tiree is faced with the possibility of 300/6MW or 180/10MW turbines in excess of 200m (600ft), the 1st row of which will be only 5km from shore .

        rgds

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  6. I was wholly against the nuclear option, even when Lovelock highlighted its obvious need. Now, however, with the threat of wind farms, on and offshore, across Argyll and with all the facts about their usefulness/green credentials along with the link to fuel poverty, I think we should stop further windfarm development and rethink the renewables strategy.

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  7. Good man ! ! ! There are about 48 local communities in Scotland fighting against planning applications for useless, expensive wind farms. You can do a google search and come up with loads of them all over the UK. I have a face book page which I try to keep up to date with new developments, if you are interested.

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    • Read about it and see pictures at:
      http://www.tireerenewableenergy.co.uk/

      It says there that it is earning £100,000/annum for the community, but it also says that they have just been allowed on to a higher feed-in tariff, so it could be higher. One can imagine some of the No Tiree brigade being rather shy of saying whether or not they supported it at the time.

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  8. The tragedy is that whether or not we like or dont like Donald Trump his economic arguement is correct and our govenment is positively helping the exploitation of our natural heritage by non local businesses without a proper debate. Our leader just handful of years ago announced that the best thing for Scotland would be to become like Ireland. This was before the Irish bubble burst and whilst he may have been convincing most economists of any worth knew that this was a piece of nonsense. This same intellect has convinced himself that a mass of windfarms is going to deliver green energy and economic strength to Scotland. Again most green enviromentalists have now accepted that wind is not a satisfactory answer to the problem and the economc beneficiaries of the proposed windfarms are the English the Danes the Spainish and a whole heap of other non scots. As for the jobs promised, these are jobs for lawyers and accountants in Edinburgh to push through the legislation and the contracts with the foreign nationals.
    So is Donald right – yes he is. LIke him or hate him he is right. Scotland is going to lose its natural heritage (which brings income to many locals ) for a pipe dream that has not been tested to the rigours of a full debate. Let there be a proper and full public enquiry so that we do not blow a thousand years away on one foolish mans dreams.

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  9. @ Hannah Sutter:

    our govenment is positively helping the exploitation of our natural heritage by non local businesses without a proper debate

    So instead we should allow our energy future to be dictated by one mad-haired self-important foreign businessman with delusions of grandeur, should we?

    I am sure no-one would deny the people of Tiree a say in their future, but they should choose their allies and their arguments carefully.

    I lived in and around Aberdeen for thirty years, and have often walked on the dunes at Balmedie. It’s a bit of a godforsaken place most days with the wind from the North Sea cutting across the dunes and through you like a knife , but it did not deserve to be turned into a playground for wealthy Americans.

    As the oil capital of Europe is is only fitting that Aberdeen become a focus for renewable energy. As for aesthetics – well, there is absolutely nothing to see when you look out across the grey North Sea from Aberdeen, nothing as far as Norway. The placement of eleven turbines offshore on this rather bleak stretch of coast is hardly going to damage an ‘iconic’ view, neither is it going to damage tourism . . . in fact, in this situation and with Aberdeen’s ‘energy capital’ status I would imagine it might even increase visitor numbers to Aberdeen’s rather chilly and unfriendly beach.

    If people can’t tell the difference between the Tiree development and the development planned for Aberdeen then it is difficult for me to credit them with a rational standpoint.

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    • You are right that there is a massive difference between the proposal off Aberdeen and the one proposed off Tiree but the truth is that we need to have a proper debate in the public eye which will show the errors of the policy being pushed through.

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      • @Hannah Sutter:

        we need to have a proper debate in the public eye which will show the errors of the policy being pushed through

        What is the point of having that debate when you, like Mr. Kirk, have already decided the outcome?

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      • Hanna. It all depends on where you get your facts from. You say ” This was before the Irish bubble burst and whilst he may have been convincing most economists of any worth knew that this was a piece of nonsense.”
        Norway, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, even Iceland are all higher in the Legatum Prosperity index than the UK, and there is no reason to believe that an independent Scotland could not be likewise.
        Professor Mike Danson is a respected economist at the University of the West of Scotland. Here is what he says.
        “But then we are fed other myths which, if repeated often enough, are also taken to be self-evident truths. Here in particular I am thinking about the notion that joining an ‘Arc of Prosperity’ of northern Europe would be a disaster because, as we all know, they have been going through a torrid time with exposure to the bitter winds of recession, globalisation and falling living standards. The truth is somewhat different.
        According to the IMF, World Bank, CIA all of the Nordic and Celtic countries continue to have higher living standards than the UK, and Scotland is even below the UK average. Each household would be better off by at least one-third if we had the economic performance of Sweden or Finland, and have far higher incomes if we were in Denmark never mind Norway. And Iceland and Ireland, those two ‘basket cases’ according to the last Labour Government and other unionists, are still well ahead of Scotland.
        Our Nordic neighbours are also the most equal societies on the planet, Scotland within the UK suffering some of the very worst levels of inequity and poverty in the developed world”.
        “In summary: we should be aspiring to join this arc of prosperity, reversing a century and a half of relative decline, and adopting an economic, tax and welfare regime that taxes the rich and protects the poor: high tax Sweden, Denmark and Finland are well ahead of the UK and Scotland in the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Index. Only through independence can Scotland join that Arc and see poverty and inequality attacked, living standards and quality of life raised.”
        It really is time to raise the tenor of the debate, whether that is for renewables or independence

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  10. “….obnoxious lunatics like Trump
    …..Trump is obnoxious and his opinions are claptrap.
    …..I am intolerant of Donald Trump
    …..Trump is a genuine lunatic, a failed GOP presidential candidate who made a fool of himself shouting for Obama’s birth certificate, a climate change denier, a man who has tried to drive people out of their homes in Aberdeenshire
    …..and that’s before we even mention the hair.
    …..mad-haired self-important foreign businessman with delusions of grandeur”

    Do you, perhaps, think that it may be a good idea to seek help, Webcraft ?

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  11. What is difficult to get across is not necessarily only the appearance of wind farms but the real albatross round the neck is the cost to the consumer. A very comprehensive survey done for farmers in Aberdeenshire suggested that there was a clear profit of £56,000 per 2.3MW turbine per annum for 20 years. For ten turbines that works out at over £11 million and we have over 3500 already build – for what – 3% of our electricity supply.

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  12. The cost to the consumer of renewable subsidies is paid through our electricity bills. According to the regulator Ofgem, wind subsidies added £10 to the average annual bill last year – utterly insignificant compared to the price rise due to the volatility of gas prices.

    US and UK figures both suggest that total onshore wind generation costs per kilowatt-hour will be lower for wind than for coal or nuclear by 2016.

    Facts are chiels that winna ding . . .

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  13. You are way out with the figures you quote – presumably they come from Hollyrood – there is plenty independent info on the net if you search for the truth. Incidentally – another official report just last week that you may wish to body swerve – in it Mr Salmond has been clearly informed that our atmosphere is no ‘cleaner’ now, than it was 10 years ago. So much for Wind Farms and the ‘ green brigade ‘ then Eh !

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  14. Green levies add £80 a year (6%) to the average gas and electricity bill of £1,335, according to the regulator Ofgem’s latest figures. Most of this money supports schemes to increase energy efficiency and decrease fuel poverty, with about £20 supporting the development of renewable energy, including windfarms and solar panels. So wind accounts for around £10, as I said.

    Of course there are other figures available ‘on the internet’, but I prefer to get mine from the independent energy regulator rather than the Daily Mail.

    Holyrood only has one ‘l’ by the way.

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  15. Pingback: Donald Trump has accused First Minister Alex Salmond of seeming “hell bent on destroying Scotland’s coastline” with wind power. | No Tiree Array

  16. If you are ‘green’ then presumably you agree that climate change is happening. Recently we have had the worst storms in living memory (during which incidentally,the Vodafone network was down, as I discovered when trying to make a 999 call. Hmm)For evidence just look at the age of the trees that have been uprooted. So how would the Tiree Array (and the projected CHORD Oban North Pier marina pontoons) look, after, say, a five day Force 12 blow, maybe SW veering NW??? Just a thought.

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    • Perhaps Walsh & Co would volunteer to go down to the North Pier and hang on for dear life to stop their beloved pontoons from floating away in the storm – and perhaps they would float away anyway, complete with human ballast.

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