Comment posted Serious situation at Oban Fire Station by phill.
Well said Cllr MacCuish. These guys deserve backing in return for all they have done. So badly advised by their union, who do not like the part timers in a full time station.
phill also commented
- You are the gobbledeygook champ, Robert (not in an offensive way), as its too early in the morning to decipher your ‘post’ questions.
Other than to say i have not indulged in any offensive, below the belt stuff, i feel its a waste of our time. I am not in a position to divulge and you dont accept that.
Have a nice uncomplicated sabbath and chill.
This issue always comes up when the chips are otherwise down for you and 2 or 3 others. Now if your not happy, and anyone has offended you, contact ‘forargyll’ and have them banished, and for God sake move on.
Phew! - To Mr Wakeham;
a combination actually. you just dont get it robert do you.
you are the fortunate one, and should concentrate on the issues not making out you are somehow a better person than those using a nickname. - Its rather obvious, because you are connecting use of an alias as a pre reqisite to obnoxious commenting.
- That doesnt mean to say that everyone is the same, and any unreasonable comments here (not that there’s many,) are attributable accross the board. You have to give and take.
‘for argyll’ would take appropriate action should the boundries be breached. - Like who’s been offensive to you?????????
Recent comments by phill
- Council latest
Duncan would be perfectly capable of giving a period of stability. Experienced, and a match for anyone. Done lots of good over many years in the community and in the Council. - Update on SNP meeting
But now that the’re icompetent beyoond belief?? - Update on SNP meeting
Why on earth would anyone other than SNP diehards vote for Cllr Taylor, when the man for the job is Cllr Walsh. Streets ahead and streetwise. The snp blew it big style. Their time will come again but definately not right now. They done like each other, so how can they pull on behalf of constituents. - Walsh to lead all but Lib Dems, Conservatives and George Freeman
Dick Walsh is nothing if not astute. Things will be more honest and upfront which is a sad indicment on the SNP who bottled it big time.
The Alliance of Independence at least faced the financial crisis face on and to be honest somewhere along the line there are going to be hard pills to swallow.
At least we will be told straight and no messing. - SNP meeting on Monday may be testing time for mega-coalition proposal
Fred Hall?
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I`m a retained firefighter and thankfully this kind of practice does NOT go on at my station or any other (as far as I know) in our brigade.
These guys deserve what has happened to them – what if the other retained FF’s going to the same incident all had the same attitude! How can you tell from a one line description of the tip-out sheet that the fire hasn`t developed or is nearby farm stock, houses etc…
A shout is a shout and you can`t pick and choose. It’s incomprehensible that these guys didn`t ride the pump which in turn meant it didn`t turn out.
If you`re a retained firefighter and you`ve booked yourself as being available then you are commited to attending a call regardless of its nature. If you`re busy at work etc then book yourself off – don`t just say that you`re available, but only if it’s a decent shout.
With careers as long as these lot then they should`ve known better and their attitude stinks and gives retained FF a bad name.
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if cat up a tree had read the article properly he or she would have realised that this was the first time this situation had occured. if still in need of rescue please call 999 and provided you are not in a gated property you will be rescued immediatly
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ok, fair enough that it’s the first time it’s happened (in that enough FFs turn up but refuse to ride because they are busy) but that’s what they`ve signed up for and get paid to do.
when you say you are available as a retained FF you are saying you are available for any incident and not just persons-reported ones and you`re not having a busy time at work.
if you can`t drop things at work then book yourself as unavailable – simple. If that knocks your pump off the run then so be it – that’s better than it showing available but in reality it’s not so when Fire Control come to mobilise you nothing happens.
as I said before initially-looking minor/non-threatening incidents can easily develop to be serious situations.
if the initial crews have requested backup then its for a reason.
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I reply to our retained friend. Is this firefighter aware that, on several occasions, a town of Obans size and population, has had only one full-time pump available at certain times of the day. On other occasions Oban Community Fire Station lay empty without any fire cover at all while firefighters attended protracted incidents. I need not remind our retained friend how important it is to have a town, such as Oban, covered fully at all times. If this means that Strathclyde Fire & Rescue have to put in place a second retained pump to ensure that there is always one pump left in the town then so be it. May I also remind him that on the day of the failed turn out of Oban’s retained crew both Oban appliances were mobilised to a barn fire 27 miles south of Oban, they were informed that there were already appliances at this incident at which there was no risk to life. If both appliances had left Oban to attend this barn on fire and a second call had come in to Oban station with “persons reported” (missing in a fire) or a serious road accident I dread to think of the consequences. If Strathclyde Police and the Scottish Ambulance Service now prioritise calls then I think it is about time Strathclyde Fire & Rescue should do the same. To conclude, life comes before straw. May I take this opportunity to say that I, along with others, will do everything we can to make sure the dismissed fire personnel have a fair hearing by Strathclyde Fire & Rescue as at this time they have had no fair hearing whatsoever. These are three men who have given long and faithful sevice to Oban and its people. These firefighters we are all very proud of and wish them well. G.B. ex Retained & Full time Firefighter
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I concur totally with George Berry as the Oban area has been well served by a committed retained Fire Brigade, and many feel that it was a total waste of money to upgrade to the new ‘Community’ station, costing so much and attrocious waste of money and fuel spinning around the town and attempting to harass the firefighter Mr Lockhart. Who is in charge of these guys.
It was always apparent that the retained crew would be squeezed out, and sadly this has come to fruition. many folks in the area owe their life and propertry to the expertise and loyalty of the local retained team. What was wrong with the like of Kenny Munro, Adam macracken, Joey Simpson, Donald Malloch etc running the show for many years from sinclair drive with a well disciplined harmonious crew.
This scenario merits investigation and well done to ‘forargyll’ and to george when he was on radio for highlighting injustice in this case.
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If a fire at somewhere like Ardfern results in a ‘shout’ at more than one station, does that mean that an experienced firefighter has assessed the number of appliances needed? If so, how can retained fire fighters at one station decide that the assessment can be ignored – that their appliance is not needed? Surely, the risk of a station being left under resourced to cope with further ‘shouts’ in the area is customarily dealt with by calling in replacement appliances and crew from neighbouring stations to provide temporary cover. Am I missing something?
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The decision on available resources and risk is upto Fire Control and not to retained FF’s to decide. Fire Control will know what pumps are available to respond to which areas and plan accordingly.
In this instance Fire Control tried to mobilise a pump which did not turn out – this defeats the whole system if when they a pump is showing as being available then it will 99.99% be able to turnout in the alloted time.
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The most disturbing thing about this report is that they seemed to be treated differently for the same offence. It is also disturbing when men who have served this community for almost 100 years between them are treated so badly. I would stake my life on the judment of the officers concerned , and many in this community have. I will be contacting them to see if i can help in any way
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Well said Cllr MacCuish. These guys deserve backing in return for all they have done. So badly advised by their union, who do not like the part timers in a full time station.
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for phill: And we assume they pay their union dues for this sort of care?
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I know there is an us and them situation in the white elephant that passes as Oban Fire (community !?) fire station, erected when money wqas plentiful but struggling now as a drain round our neck.
Nothing personal agin the full timers but what was in place previously was perfectly adequate.
What a slap in the face, and poor PR from Strathclyde Fire service.
The well respected firefighter, Jim Maitland had a mobile chippy many years ago, until ridiculously squeezed out with some daft bylelaws, and now ironically one of the full time pumps seems to be used as a delivery vehicle for full timers, often seen in locations nowt to do with putting out fires, fetching the pies etc, using hellish ammounts of diesel.
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These guys are paid to do a job, they need to take responsibility for their actions and live by their decisions.
with the amount of service they have they should know better!
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I wonder what would the reaction of these guys have been if Oban did not have a full time crew? Phil has said it . Is there an us and them situation ? and if so Why? These guys are paid to do a job. Well paid I might add. Who are they to make the deciscion they will not attend. If you sign up you do the job. Its just like the GP’s When they first signed up it was for call 24/7 Now they sem to think they should have holidays off. not what was signed up for.
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Interesting that the councillors only get on the bandwagon now the situation is flagged up in public.
Do they not have their finger on the pulse in their own communities sufficiently to know what was happening before?
Or is it that there is an election coming up?
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Elaine , this has got to do with the retained crew being squeezed out since the full time place was consecrated. What you are suggesting indirectly is correct that this would never have happened in the days of the stationed being opersated by retained crew with a fire chief. They never let us down.
ask strathclyde fir brigade. they have sytematically battered the retained crews where they have turned full time. As i repeat its us and them and the big boys are flexing there muscles. They are so unjust.
Move back to Sinclair drive, a far better location, reinstate the number of retained personnel, move the full timers back to the central belt where they will pass the day better than filling up the pump with communal shopping from tesco etc. Its a joke and we cant afford it. The full timers could be better deployed in areas where they are kept busy saving livees and thats what its surely all about.
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Interesting reading here, but it seems to me that one MAJOR factor has been overlooked.
In paragraph 2 you state “We understand that some did not respond to the call of their pagers to the shout and did not come in to the station”. Why have you not named and shamed these guys???? They were signed in as “available”, therefore should have attended! It seems to me that they are every bit as guilty as the ones you did name.
I take it these guys still have their jobs. I look forward to hearing who they are when they have their disciplinary hearing……..
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Linnhe . Ihave been on this band wagon for quite a while . Unfortunately the local paper the O. B. Times did not print the story. The only opportunity i had to comment in public was when it appearred on For Argyll . I also pride my self in knowing what is going on in my community if i dont belive you me they soon tell me. It is a pity you could not support the firefighters named instead of seeing this as an opportunity to have a go at councillors
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Sorry about the spelling mistakes Trying to watch the foot ball and type.
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Cllr Roddy McCuish and Mr Berry. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS ALL ABOUT!!! It is simple. If you are at work and you get a shout or a call, whatever it’s called then you go!. If you finish at 5 and you get a call/shout at 4:55 YOU GO. If you are retained and you say that you are available YOU GO. If you turn up to a station and decide not to go due to “no life risk” who are you to make that decision. Also has anyone done the math?? Retained should take 8mins to get to the station. Ardfern is 27 miles away. No pump at the incident yet, anything clicking yet????? Ok I will spell it out. They could not have known there was no life risk until they got to the job. They have no contact with other fire engines unless they listen to the radio. Sounds a bit like the Police Officer that “couldn’t be bothered to arrest someone” but that’s ok right? perhaps she was ex retained with a chip on her shoulder too!! Also can just add my support to the LOCAL (what twat said they were from the central belt) firefighters, retained and whole time. They do a valuable COMMUNITY SERVICE in the area. A very happy resident of Oban!
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FACT
What was so wrong with the old fire station in the town that served us so well. The new station simply does not merit the running cost, and to take up the slack by titling it as a ‘community’ fire station is trying to justify its existence.
How much does this white elephant cost each council tax payer and just think of how many beds could be saved in the Lorn and isles hospital, ????????should the tried and tested retained system had survived the empire builders extravagant notions. Priorities are all wrong.
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I think the ref was trying to watch the footie and type!!
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The long and short is that the retained firefighters were in no place to question if they should attend or not. They would be paid to do it! With regards the FT fire fighters and watch officers, they may shop in tesco etc during the day, however they visit premises in oban and district to check on fire safety, issue notices for non compliance, offer advice and training to staff in retail and hotel premises etc. Their day IS a working day dealing with community fire safety, fighting fires which are very rare nowadays is a secondery activity. Their main duty is probably car accidents etc. Yet again, for argyll is on an witch hunt against another organisation. Any chance of some positive posts? No thought so!
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Support A&B Council
This is not really the place for this post however there is not a specific thread I can put it in. A&B earns and loses its respect through its own actions. Nobody is niave enough to expect a Council that gets it right 100% of the time and I recognise the hard work that is done by a lot of Council officers (across a wide range of services) and some Councillors.
However the top tier officers in A&B and the senior members of the current Administration have bene guilty of appalling behaviour which goes well beyond incompetence or mistakes and has stepped wholeheaterdly into the arena of mismanagement and manipulation. Until they apologise and/or certain members are removed then they deserve no support, only critisicm and ridicule. Their bridges are burnt with a large number of the electorate because they lied, cheated and took good people for granted.
They do not represent the people of A&B nor are they reflective of a lot of Council staff who work hard and deserve better and more honest leadership.
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As someone who was involved in representing Mr Lockhart and therefore aware of ALL the facts of the case, we as an organisation was disappointed with the way our member was treated. While not condoning a lack of response there were many mitigating circumstances in defence of those involved. After many years of putting the fire service ahead of his family due to his commitment to the job, Mr Lockhart deserved to be treated better, unfortunately the whole episode has left a bitter taste to what was overall a rewarding and enjoyable career.
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Support A&B Council;
Even if they go round every premises in the area advising etc, what do they do the other 50 weeks of the year – bored to tears i wager.
Retained firefighter union;
You hit the nail on the head in that the whole time FFs would not have been treated this way, and as militant union would have stood shoulder to shoulder whatever the scenario. The partimers have been seen as a ‘footer’ by the big boys.
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THIS WHOLE THING NEEDS SOMEONE WI A BIT OF COMMON SENSE TO SORT THIS WHOLE THING OUT. SURELY A GOOD OLD FASHIONED KICK UP THE BACKSIDE WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH.IF THE BOYS HAD BOOKED OFF SURELY THE RESULT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME THE PUMP WOULD HAVE BEEN OFF THE RUN ANYWAY.IT TALKS ABOUT OTHERS NOT TURNING OUT AT ALL AND NOT BEEN BOOKED OFF AND NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM IS THAT NOT VICTIMISATION .THOSE LADS MADE A JUDGEMENT TO TURN UP THAT DAY BECAUSE THEY CARE ABOUT THE TOWN THEY HAVE SERVED AND PROTECTED ALL THOSE LOYAL YEARS.THEY HAD WORK TO GET DONE THEY ARE THE PART TIME BOYS WITH THE FULL TIME JOBS NOT THE FULL TIME ONES WITH THE PART TIME JOBS YES.READING THE LETTERS THEY DIDNT GET PROPER REPRESENTATION NOY WAY THIS CHAP WAS UP FOR THIS JOB THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN PROPER LEGAL ADVICE FROM THE UNION THEY HAVE BEEN MEMBERS OF FOR YEARS.I THINK THOSE BOYS SHOULD GET A PROPER HEARING THE JURY SHOULD BE MADE UP OF COUNCILERS WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES MISJUDGEMENTS CALL IT WHAT YOU LIKE THEY DESERVE TO BE HEARD.GOOD LUCK LADS YOU DESERVE IT I HOPE THE PUBLIC GET BEHIND YOU . I HOPE CAT IN THE TREES PAINT IS DRY ON HIS HELMET BY NOW
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Good point Glen, the full timers all have other jobs moonlighting as this that that and the other. Obviously there not too tired out! This has been handled in a pathetic fuddled manner and the truth will out.
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In response to Glen from September 15, 2011 at 7:06 pm
If people had died due to them not bothering to attend an incident that they were unaware what exactly was involved would a boot up the backside still be ok?
If the pump is off the run then control is aware of this and would send an additional pump from elsewhere. How can they make a judgement call regarding an incident that they did not attend. Many incidents come in as automated alarms or minor issues but turn out to be major incidents. Expect the unexpected and deal with thre incident when you arrive.
In response to phil September 15, 2011 at 9:37 pm
Why shouldnt the whole time firefighters have additional jobs? Should it only be retained firefighters who can work two jobs and many hours? There is no question of moonlighting as there is a policy within the brigade which allows you to work a 2nd job with the brigades permission
In my opinion the guys decided they couldnt be arsed going to the job as it was out of town and they would have to do an hours work to get an hours pay so instead decided to neglect their moral and contractual obligation.
Shame on them – glad that it did turn out to be a minor incident
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Strayhclyde \fire Brigade have made an a##e of this issue. Overmanned underworked and surely ripe for cost saving measures.
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Obviously a very emotive subject which can stir up a lot
of emotions on both sides of the discussion.Everyone is
entitled to have a go on this issue but please have the decency to put your name to the comment.
I think the boys involved in this situation deserve that
at least.If you feel that strongly about what happened dont hide behind some stupid nickname.
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There are good sound reasons why many cant put names up on here, due to potential retribution from emoloyers etc, and it no way invalidates the points raised. It has become a bit of a red herring this and raises its head anytime some posters are devoid of ideas.
Re ‘the boys in the station deserve that at least’, they have received my backing in a practical way. I have nailed my colours to the mast – where do you stand? As a potential councillor you will need to do better as you will be expected to sort things out/get things done.
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There is one good sound reason for criticising the use of an alias – if it’s less to do with ‘potential retribution from employers etc’ and more to do with getting away with gratuitous offensiveness.
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Like who’s been offensive to you?????????
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Phil: Why the surprise? Isn’t the attitude of the likes of Simon offensive to practically all of us?
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That doesnt mean to say that everyone is the same, and any unreasonable comments here (not that there’s many,) are attributable accross the board. You have to give and take.
‘for argyll’ would take appropriate action should the boundries be breached.
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Phill: ‘Give and take’ is fine, but this is no excuse for the occasional obnoxious character hiding behind an alias- and, assuming you’re not such a person, I don’t see why you are taking issue with my comment.
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Its rather obvious, because you are connecting use of an alias as a pre reqisite to obnoxious commenting.
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Phill: What’s rather obvious? I just think that – whereas some people are entirely justified in using an alias, others aren’t, and are using it as a cover for acting the oaf. Which is more or less restating what I said in the first place; I do wonder why quite so many people who hold what seem to be perfectly reasonable opinions should choose to conceal their identities; for example, in your case, is it potential retribution from an employer, are you a politician or otherwise well known in the community, or is there some other reason?
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If anyone in Oban has seen a ninja give me a phone it would
be great to talk to them.
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Ah but if he’s a proper ninja, you won’t be able to see him! LOL
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To Mr Wakeham;
a combination actually. you just dont get it robert do you.
you are the fortunate one, and should concentrate on the issues not making out you are somehow a better person than those using a nickname.
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Phill: How about explaining what I ‘just don’t get’, rather than ascribing ideas that aren’t true; you seem remarkably sensitive to the suggestion that identity concealment can sometimes lead to intemperate comment.
One aspect that might be interesting in the context of ‘ForArgyll’ would be to know whether there’s a greater proportion of concealed identities on this website than similar ones elsewhere (if there are some). If there is, working out whether it’s anything at all to do with the actual or perceived behaviour of Argyll & Bute Council would still presumably be very difficult to ascertain.
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You are the gobbledeygook champ, Robert (not in an offensive way), as its too early in the morning to decipher your ‘post’ questions.
Other than to say i have not indulged in any offensive, below the belt stuff, i feel its a waste of our time. I am not in a position to divulge and you dont accept that.
Have a nice uncomplicated sabbath and chill.
This issue always comes up when the chips are otherwise down for you and 2 or 3 others. Now if your not happy, and anyone has offended you, contact ‘forargyll’ and have them banished, and for God sake move on.
Phew!
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